The following is a response I worked on to a thread that seems to have disappeared, along with our Gnostic member, unless I'm mistaken. I thought I would post my response here, since I spent awhile writing it, but if admin. thinks it best to delete, I won't protest. I first addressed "Butch5", then the former Gnostic member. Perhaps a discussion can still ensue. I am curious what others here might believe about the question of, and possible nature of, "hell". I don't wish, particularly to debate, but to hear what others might think.

Originally Posted by Butch5

Actually, people don't go to Heaven and hell is not an endless burning. The wicked will perish, they will burn up and be gone.

Butch, Can you explain your thoughts about 'the not going to Heaven' thing?

* * * *

I believe there is a hell (or what we might think of as "hell"), but think that the spirits there are somehow trapped of their own volition. I had a dream of a hell-like chamber where unimaginable things were being done, torture, very little light, cells, something like stone walls. It seemed I could see those being tortured, could sense but not clearly see the torturers, but none could see me. I was filled with mounting panic by the sense of hopelessness and evil. I 'ran' toward what appeared to be crude, rock steps leading upward and in that instant I 'remembered' Jesus. Suddenly, it was as if the 'Name' alerted them and those torturing swarmed me, were hovering in the air and all about me. Simultaneously, as my mind formed His name, I was delivered, woke up, heart pounding. In this, I learned the very real power of His Name.

I see no reason why those trapped there could not also call on Him, but they don't, or at least did not while I was witnessing. I wonder if some accept the punishment of hell? If they simply don't know to call on the Lord, or if they won't. I don't know if such a place could be eternal or even if it is "real" (in a sense) or if people have somehow created that reality, or if that is simply the reality of separation from God.

What I do think is that even after death, there may still be a glimmer of hope. Our Saviour is still Saviour and wishes none to be lost. Better by far to accept the gift of His Salvation in this life.

Is it that some of us reject Him so thoroughly, that we can't or won't turn to Him even in our deepest, darkest agony? I don't know.


* * * *

Mr. Gnostic,

Why would anyone teach their child that they and most of their friends are going to hell? Can you be serious? We can, alternatively teach our children of the great hope and security to be found in calling on Jesus. We have a Saviour and He is called "Saviour" for a reason. He is good, full of mercy, and I trust fully He knows when and how and who to "save." I also trust that if some are "lost", the decision will only be made from a position of great wisdom, authority, and for the protection and eternal peace of the Kingdom of God and those who will dwell there. Such things are the right and territory of God, whom you, thus far, have stated you will not look up to.

If, as you have written previously, you do not believe that Jesus really was/is a living being, I suppose that calling on Him might present a problem.

Perhaps you should give it a try? (and I'm NOT talking about your "pseudo-Jesus", as you, yourself have written)

Even the most righteous of us would need to be rather egotistical to think that we somehow made the grade for heaven.

Is it egotistical to trust that "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it?" That His perfect love is meant to cast out fear in those who trust in Him?

We do not have to "make the grade" to enter in; we need to trust and obey and believe that He is Saviour.

Stop trying to malign the Christian God. It can not be done.

(I apologize that you can not respond, but that, too, is a decision of those in authority.)

[Butch5]

Originally Posted by Piper

The following is a response I worked on to a thread that seems to have disappeared, along with our Gnostic member, unless I'm mistaken. I thought I would post my response here, since I spent awhile writing it, but if admin. thinks it best to delete, I won't protest. I first addressed "Butch5", then the former Gnostic member. Perhaps a discussion can still ensue. I am curious what others here might believe about the question of, and possible nature of, "hell". I don't wish, particularly to debate, but to hear what others might think.




Butch, Can you explain your thoughts about 'the not going to Heaven' thing?

* * * *

I believe there is a hell (or what we might think of as "hell"), but think that the spirits there are somehow trapped of their own volition. I had a dream of a hell-like chamber where unimaginable things were being done, torture, very little light, cells, something like stone walls. It seemed I could see those being tortured, could sense but not clearly see the torturers, but none could see me. I was filled with mounting panic by the sense of hopelessness and evil. I 'ran' toward what appeared to be crude, rock steps leading upward and in that instant I 'remembered' Jesus. Suddenly, it was as if the 'Name' alerted them and those torturing swarmed me, were hovering in the air and all about me. Simultaneously, as my mind formed His name, I was delivered, woke up, heart pounding. In this, I learned the very real power of His Name.

I see no reason why those trapped there could not also call on Him, but they don't, or at least did not while I was witnessing. I wonder if some accept the punishment of hell? If they simply don't know to call on the Lord, or if they won't. I don't know if such a place could be eternal or even if it is "real" (in a sense) or if people have somehow created that reality, or if that is simply the reality of separation from God.

What I do think is that even after death, there may still be a glimmer of hope. Our Saviour is still Saviour and wishes none to be lost. Better by far to accept the gift of His Salvation in this life.

Is it that some of us reject Him so thoroughly, that we can't or won't turn to Him even in our deepest, darkest agony? I don't know.


* * * *

Mr. Gnostic,

Why would anyone teach their child that they and most of their friends are going to hell? Can you be serious? We can, alternatively teach our children of the great hope and security to be found in calling on Jesus. We have a Saviour and He is called "Saviour" for a reason. He is good, full of mercy, and I trust fully He knows when and how and who to "save." I also trust that if some are "lost", the decision will only be made from a position of great wisdom, authority, and for the protection and eternal peace of the Kingdom of God and those who will dwell there. Such things are the right and territory of God, whom you, thus far, have stated you will not look up to.

If, as you have written previously, you do not believe that Jesus really was/is a living being, I suppose that calling on Him might present a problem.

Perhaps you should give it a try? (and I'm NOT talking about your "pseudo-Jesus", as you, yourself have written)



Is it egotistical to trust that "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it?" That His perfect love is meant to cast out fear in those who trust in Him?

We do not have to "make the grade" to enter in; we need to trust and obey and believe that He is Saviour.

Stop trying to malign the Christian God. It can not be done.

(I apologize that you can not respond, but that, too, is a decision of those in authority.)

Hi Piper,

I'd be glad to explain my position, but I'll have to wait until this evening as I have to leave for work. I will give you something to ponder though. The idea that Christians go to Heaven when they die seem almost universal in the Christian world. Given that one would thing one would find this teaching all over the Bible yet there is not a single passage of Scripture that says Christians go to Heaven when they die. The idea is drawn from inferences such as the souls under the altar in Revelation. If Heaven was the hope that all Christians look for sure it would be stated clearly somewhere. However, if we look at the Scriptures we find that the Christian's hope is the promise to Abraham of a restore land. God promised to give Abraham and his Seed, who Paul said is Christ the land as an "everlasting" inheritance.

I'll go into more later.

[CatholicCrusader]

QUOTE:

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[i]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell

Source: LINK

[CatholicCrusader]

The reason Hell is eternal is because our spirits are eternal, so wherever we end up is where we will be for all eternity.

Out spirits will live forever, so we will forever either be in union with God or separated from God.

And as a side note, Hell, like Heaven, is not a physical place either. Hell & Heaven are in the spiritual realm. They are not physical places.

"Heaven" is union with God.
"Hell" is separation from God.

But Hell IS eternal, and Hell IS eternal punishment. Scripture PROVES that.

[Butch5]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

QUOTE:

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[i]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell

Source: LINK

Can you exegete those passages for us?

[CatholicCrusader]

Originally Posted by Butch5

Can you exegete those passages for us?

I don't know what that means. I just know you are dead wrong on this subject.

[Butch5]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

The reason Hell is eternal is because our spirits are eternal, so wherever we end up is where we will be for all eternity.

Out spirits will live forever, so we will forever either be in union with God or separated from God.

And as a side note, Hell, like Heaven, is not a physical place either. Hell & Heaven are in the spiritual realm. They are not physical places.

"Heaven" is union with God.
"Hell" is separation from God.

But Hell IS eternal, and Hell IS eternal punishment. Scripture PROVES that.

Man consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God (Gen 2:7). When a man dies his body returns to the dust and God's breath/spirit returns to Him. Man does not have in and of himself a spirit let alone an eternal one. It is God's breath/spirit that is in a man. The Scriptures clearly state that it is the Father alone who has immortality.

Hell (Gehenna) is a real physical place. It is the valley of the Sons of Hinnom. It is where the Children of Israel burned their sons and daughters to foreign gods and said it would be a valley of slaughter. It is where the bodies were burned after the Babylonians and the Romans attacked Israel. It is also the place where the wicked will be destroy.

Let me ask you a question, can you produce anything in Scripture that says the wages of sin is to burn eternally?

[Butch5]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

I don't know what that means. I just know you are dead wrong on this subject.

To exegete the passages is to explain what they mean given the context and other parameters.

I'm not wrong on this subject. I studied it in great death and I can support everything I say with proper exegesis of the text if the thread is allowed to continue.

[Giuliano]

Originally Posted by Butch5

To exegete the passages is to explain what they mean given the context and other parameters.

I'm not wrong on this subject. I studied it in great death and I can support everything I say with proper exegesis of the text if the thread is allowed to continue.

Why not ignore him and go on with what you want to say? He's not the only person here. Why not talk to others? He'll never let you alone if you keep going back and forth with him; and you may never get to what you really want to say.

If it gets too annoying, you can put him on ignore by going into your profile so the words in his posts don't show up.

[Butch5]

Originally Posted by Giuliano

Why not ignore him and go on with what you want to say? He's not the only person here. Why not talk to others? He'll never let you alone if you keep going back and forth with him; and you may never get to what you really want to say.

If it gets too annoying, you can put him on ignore by going into your profile so the words in his posts don't show up.

Hi Giuliano,

Actually, I think the back forth helps sometimes. I have to leave for work now but will post more of my position this evening.