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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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  #1  
Old 12-19-2013, 12:20 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Did the Catholic Church throw out Old Dogma(s)?
Rubbish. That was then, this is now, and the Church still hasnt thrown out a Dogma. The Church still teaches Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus as Dogma.

If someone could prove that the Church threw out a Dogma, should I leave the Catholic Church for a Church that threw out a dozen or more Dogmas, along with five Sacraments, some of the Canon, Apostolic succession, obedience to the decision of Ecumenical councils, and the (ordained) priesthood?

Liturgical rubrics are another Casualty of most Independant Church's.

That was the way Christians worshipped for rougly 1500 years and shouldnt be dismissed lightly.

I still prefer the Church with the least amount of moral relativism, and the most Dogmatic consistency.
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2013, 03:37 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

We all (probably) know about the famous letter, Unam Sanctum 1302:
…”no salvation outside the Church"…subjection to Roman Pontiff is a salvation issue...so on and so forth

It is preposterous to say boniface was damning Protestants, who didn’t exist until hundreds of years later.

These words are actually directed at Churches (catholic Churches). Not individuals. Catholics were rebelling and spreading error and the Pope who had to respond, was speaking about the Churches in schism (communions of Heretics) and not the individual souls.

These schismatics were Churches that the Pope did not deny had seven valid sacraments, valid priesthood, valid mass, Apostolic succession etc. so it is absurd to say that he was stating that the individuals were damned for belonging to a group that didn’t obey him.

Christ told St. Francis of Assisi “rebuild my house for it has fallen into ruin”.
The Papacy’s approval and support of the Franciscan order, rule, and mission to reform (rebuild) God’s house is one example that the Pope recognized the need for reform within the Church.


Pope Boniface VIII was trying to prevent a fractured splintered Church by establishing discipline order and unity. Without obedience to a central authority this is impossible and can lead to moral relativism or pick and choose state of affairs.

His statements were in order to make a theological point.

As a point of Historical fact, the Church has always painstakingly defended the valid workings of grace in non-Catholic Churches

The Catholic Church has NEVER held that only its official members can be saved.

The Church is central to God’s plan of salvation (1Tim 3:15), the earthly instrument through which, by the Holy Spirit, saving grace flows. Thus it benefits a man to be part of that Church, in order to partake of those saving graces most fully.

Romans 2:11-16
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (god judges the secrets of men)

Not every non Catholic is personally culpable for not being one.

We believe that all are saved through the Church in some fashion, whether they are aware of it or not.
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2013, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

I would think Unam Sanctam would apply to anyone then or in the future.

. . . This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven" etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Whoever resists the power of the Pope is said to be resisting God. To be saved, a person must be subject to the Pope.
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  #4  
Old 12-19-2013, 06:06 PM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
.........To be saved, a person must be subject to the Pope.
Gobbleygook
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #5  
Old 12-19-2013, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Gobbleygook
I'd say so too, but Boniface VIII did his best to convince people that he had complete authority over everyone.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2013, 04:29 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
I'd say so too, but Boniface VIII did his best to convince people that he had complete authority over everyone.
Pope bunnyface doesnt know how or when GOd will enlighten someone to know the fullness of the Truth. People who died even in the great flood who were great sinners had the Gospel preached to them after they died.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2013, 05:46 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

By
embracing
the
beliefs
contained
in
the
Nicene
Creed
you
are
already
obeying
the
Pope
on
what
are
the
most
important
Doctrines
of
the
Catholic
Church!


(Nicene Creed is the summary of our faith)

Our greatest solemnity and longest vigil is dedicated to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is a Doctrine that you believe in as well.

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 10:9
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2013, 06:10 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,435
Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
By
embracing
the
beliefs
contained
in
the
Nicene
Creed
you
are
already
obeying
the
Pope
on
what
are
the
most
important
Doctrines
of
the
Catholic
Church!

(Nicene Creed is the summary of our faith)

Our greatest solemnity and longest vigil is dedicated to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is a Doctrine that you believe in as well.

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 10:9
Your church does not recite the Nicene Creed as it was composed at the First Council of Nicea.
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2013, 01:20 PM
matt041187
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Your church does not recite the Nicene Creed as it was composed at the First Council of Nicea.
Is there something dangerous or Heretical about the Creed we recite at SUnday Mass?
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2013, 05:40 PM
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Posts: 5,435
Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
Is there something dangerous or Heretical about the Creed we recite at SUnday Mass?
It is not the original Nicene Creed; and a later ecumenical council said no one should change it. The Catholic Church changed it on their own; and this led to a controversy with the Orthodox Church.

The question is not if it is right or wrong. (I'd say yes, myself, it's heretical; but that's not the question.) The question is if the Catholic Church changed anything, and the answer is yes. It is in defiance of the Canon VII of Ephesus.

Canon 7

When these things had been read, the holy Synod decreed that it is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa. But those who shall dare to compose a different faith, or to introduce or offer it to persons desiring to turn to the acknowledgment of the truth, whether from Heathenism or from Judaism, or from any heresy whatsoever, shall be deposed, if they be bishops or clergymen; bishops from the episcopate and clergymen from the clergy; and if they be laymen, they shall be anathematized. And in like manner, if any, whether bishops, clergymen, or laymen, should be discovered to hold or teach the doctrines contained in the Exposition introduced by the Presbyter Charisius concerning the Incarnation of the Only-Begotten Son of God, or the abominable and profane doctrines of Nestorius, which are subjoined, they shall be subjected to the sentence of this holy and ecumenical Synod. So that, if it be a bishop, he shall be removed from his bishopric and degraded; if it be a clergyman, he shall likewise be stricken from the clergy; and if it be a layman, he shall be anathematized, as has been afore said.


The Apostles' Creed was also altered by the American Bishops just recently.

Last edited by Giuliano : 12-21-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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