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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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  #11  
Old 12-24-2013, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
Is there something dangerous or Heretical about the Creed we recite at SUnday Mass?
Well, here is the story.

The filioque clause is considered heretical by both Rome and Orthodoxy when rendered in Greek (this is why the Popes, when saying it in Greek, never add "and the Son" to "Who proceeds from the Father"). Rome does not consider it heretical when rendered in Latin, and justifies its usage in other languages by saying "it is translated from the Latin, not the Greek." The ancient doctrine says that in the eternal relations, the Spirit proceeds from the Father. In temporal relations, i.e. at Pentecost, the Spirit is given by the Son. However, in temporal relations, in the Incarnation, the Son is given by the Holy Spirit. Hence the problem of applying it to the temporal relation as opposed to the eternal relation.

But it does not belong in the creed in the first place, and is an addition that severed the population of Christendom. BTW every year, in at least one Mass at the Vatican, the N-C creed is read just in the Greek, so that there is no filioque at that Mass.
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2013, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

^ I consider Charlemagne a sort of "antichrist" figure. He swooped down on Rome and made the Pope crown him. He added the fliioque in the places he could; and while Pope Leo III leaned towards believing in the filoque, he absolutely refused to alter the creed, knowing it would be problematical. Leo asked Charlemagne to have the Bishops remove it and Charlemagne didn't obey.

Leo was so committed to preserving unity by maintaining the Creed without the filioque, he had the two famous sliver shields engraved with the Creed in both Latin and Greek without it.

It was only centuries later that the Catholic Church made the filioque officially a part of the Creed. I forget which Pope did it; but I think it was at the time a German Emperor was being crowned. Leo's two shields were still there, but no one seemed to notice what they said.

So I have several objections to it. First it's wrong, and I guess that could be argued. Secondly, the innovation was unnecessary and led to division in the Church; and thirdly, its addition was more the result of the opinions of kings than of careful study of past Church Tradition.
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  #13  
Old 12-31-2013, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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I'd say so too, but Boniface VIII did his best to convince people that he had complete authority over everyone.
Authority and salvation are two different things.

In a sense, the Pope does have complete authority over everyone. If we are to believe that Jesus appointed Peter and the Popes as the earthly shepherds, then it is incumbant upon the Popes to act in that regard even if people reject him. It is similar to the fact that God is the God of all mankind, even the atheists who reject him.

But salvation? That is God's purvue.
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  #14  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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Authority and salvation are two different things.
Yes, they are; but Boniface thought his authority entitled him to say, "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

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In a sense, the Pope does have complete authority over everyone. If we are to believe that Jesus appointed Peter and the Popes as the earthly shepherds, then it is incumbant upon the Popes to act in that regard even if people reject him. It is similar to the fact that God is the God of all mankind, even the atheists who reject him.
When this idea come into being? Surely a shepherd doesn't try to herd wolves. A shepherd is responsible for his sheep.

During the Spanish Inquisition, only baptized people were said to be subject to the authority of the Holy Office.

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But salvation? That is God's purvue.
Was Boniface speaking ex cathedra? Cardinal Manning said yes; but others say no. There is no list -- no official list -- of what statements of the Popes are ex cathedra. At any rate, the Fifth Lateran Council said something similar -- Session 11:

Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution, but without prejudice to the declaration of pope Clement V of holy memory, which begins Meruit .

The wording is slightly different. Boniface said "every human creature" while the Fifth Lateran Council reads "all Christ's faithful."
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  #15  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:34 AM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
......Was Boniface speaking ex cathedra? Cardinal Manning said yes; but others say no........
I don't know, but if he was, ex cathedra statements are much like the Bible in that they can easily be misinterpreted.

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
....When this idea come into being? Surely a shepherd doesn't try to herd wolves. A shepherd is responsible for his sheep........
Was not Jesus the Good Shepherd? And is he not Lord of all creation, not just the sheep?
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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 12-31-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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I don't know, but if he was, ex cathedra statements are much like the Bible in that they can easily be misinterpreted.
I don't know how useful the concept is anyway since we don't really know which statements are on the list. We know some definitely are, but it's unclear about others.
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Was not Jesus the Good Shepherd? And is he not Lord of all creation, not just the sheep?
It is said that Jesus will divide the sheep from the goats -- and tell the goats to depart from him into everlasting fire.

It seems exaggerated to me for a Pope to think of everyone in the world as his sheep. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice. Why would be any different for a Pope? Some people hear his voice and others do not.
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:15 PM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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......It is said that Jesus will divide the sheep from the goats -- and tell the goats to depart from him into everlasting fire.........
True, if they remain goats until their death. But he also wasnted to turn as many goats into sheep as possible. Isnt that why we spread the Gospel to unbelievers?

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
......It seems exaggerated to me for a Pope to think of everyone in the world as his sheep. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice. Why would be any different for a Pope? Some people hear his voice and others do not.
I didn't say everyone is his sheep. But he is responsible to make sheep out of as many as possible. Jesus commanded the apostles to make disciples of all nations.
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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True, if they remain goats until their death. But he also wasnted to turn as many goats into sheep as possible. Isnt that why we spread the Gospel to unbelievers?

I didn't say everyone is his sheep. But he is responsible to make sheep out of as many as possible. Jesus commanded the apostles to make disciples of all nations.
On that, I cannot disagree; but I think a Pope would give himself a headache if he thinks he can exercise authority over goats who don't want to be sheep.
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2014, 03:40 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
Well, here is the story.

The filioque clause is considered heretical by both Rome and Orthodoxy when rendered in Greek (this is why the Popes, when saying it in Greek, never add "and the Son" to "Who proceeds from the Father"). Rome does not consider it heretical when rendered in Latin, and justifies its usage in other languages by saying "it is translated from the Latin, not the Greek." The ancient doctrine says that in the eternal relations, the Spirit proceeds from the Father. In temporal relations, i.e. at Pentecost, the Spirit is given by the Son. However, in temporal relations, in the Incarnation, the Son is given by the Holy Spirit. Hence the problem of applying it to the temporal relation as opposed to the eternal relation.

But it does not belong in the creed in the first place, and is an addition that severed the population of Christendom. BTW every year, in at least one Mass at the Vatican, the N-C creed is read just in the Greek, so that there is no filioque at that Mass.
Is reciting any of those creeds a sin?

All the cold rigid legalism is getting on my nerves.
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2014, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Let sleeping Dogmas die?

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Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
Is reciting any of those creeds a sin?
It could be if someone condemns others for some creed they recite. People may frown at me for not accepting the Nicene Creed that they recite. I think they are condemning themselves by trying to condemn me.
Quote:
All the cold rigid legalism is getting on my nerves.
What happened to coming to Jesus as a child? I don't think I need that creed or any other. Christians did without it for hundreds of years.
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