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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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  #1  
Old 11-02-2013, 06:56 PM
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Default Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

How will God judge the world? Who will end up in the lake of fire, and who will end up judging with God on his throne? Most Christians don’t know the answer to these questions. Let me ask you this, what if God commanded you to do something, would you do it? If God told you to obey him would you? God has asked this before, but in this world of “New Testament Christians”, almost everyone is taught that we don’t have to obey the laws of God any more. Most ministers today teach that all you have to do (Rom.10: 9) is confess that Jesus came in the flesh and you shall be saved. They have deceived you into believing that you need no works, that you need no fruits of faith. But if this is true, then the same question persists: how will God judge the world?

What if your minister convinced you that there are two Gods? One God is the father, the “mean killing machine” of the Old Testament, and the other is the “sweet loving” Jesus of the New Testament. What if the God of the old and New Testament were one and the same; what if he said, “Keep my Sabbaths”, would you? What if he said, “Keep My Feasts” because the bible says that these are the Feasts of the Lord, and not the feasts of the Jews, would you? What if he said, “Keep my Commandments and my Judgments” would you keep them or would you allow some false prophet to convince you that they are no longer valid? What if he said, “I have an Everlasting Covenant and that I shed my blood for it,” would you believe him? Can you be saved by faith only? Do works matter? In this text lesson I am by way of the bible, going to prove to you that if you have faith in God then you will bring forth fruits of that faith by your works.

From the Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary the definition of the word faith is; believe, trust. Now then how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your works, that’s how. Let’s go to the chapter in the bible that people call the faith chapter.


Lets go into (Heb.11: 1-2, 7, 17, 24-26, 31, 35, 39-40) (v.1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (v.2) For by it the elders obtained a good report. Now by the elder’s faith (belief) in God they obtained a good report. But how did theses elders show God that they had faith (belief) in him? Let’s take a look at some of them. (v.7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness, which is by faith. How did Noah prove to God that he had faith in him? By his works! Noah moved with faith and fear and began preparing the ark. (v.17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that received the promises offered up his only begotten son. Now here is the father of the faithful, and how did he show God the he had faith in him? By his works! The Lord God told Abraham to go and sacrifice his son, his only son. And Abraham’s faith was so strong that he was seconds’ way from killing his only son when the angel of the Lord stopped him, now that’s truly fruits of faith. (v.24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; (v.25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; (v.26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

Moses knew who he was once he became of age unlike the movie would have you to believe. How did Moses show his faith? By his works! But through faith he chose to suffer affliction with the people of God rather than enjoy the pleasures of sin by continuing to allow himself to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter: esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. You see Moses knew exactly whom he was dealing with, and it’s best that you learn that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament and his name is Jesus. (v.31) By faith the harlot Ra’-hab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. The Harlot Ra’- hab showed her faith in God by her works! She hid the spies sent by Joshua, and the Lord blessed her and her family by saving them when he took down the city of Jericho. (v.35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: How strong is your faith, will you endure affliction, torture, imprisonment, stoning, and even die for the word of God? These people showed their faith in God by their works, not accepting deliverance because they were looking for a better resurrection. What’s a better resurrection? The first resurrection is a better resurrection because if you are raised in the first resurrection you will not be judged; you will be doing the judging. But all of these people we just read about showed you fruits of faith they showed you works. (v.39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: They received a good report through faith. But how did they show their faith (belief) in God? By their works, and they all died with a good report having not received the promise. (v.40) God having provided some better things for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Everybody that has a better resurrection coming will receive it at the same time. That’s why it says that they without us will not be made perfect. Who is perfect? God is perfect. God is recreating God. That’s another lesson for another time.
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

Works is not willful doing good. It is the result of a renewed mind that is lead by His Holy Spirit. It is doing things without thought. The ten commandments used as a guide (by the believer), is replaced by being guided by His Holy Spirit. There are still the Laws of God, but these laws aren't written on stone tablets. They are written in the heart and mind of the believer, when our walk is guided by His Holy Spirit then we will not submit to the lusts of the flesh and we do not need the ten commandments to guide us. We have His Grace that makes it possible to do what we cannot do.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:50 AM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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Originally Posted by Saul View Post
Works is not willful doing good. It is the result of a renewed mind that is lead by His Holy Spirit. It is doing things without thought. The ten commandments used as a guide (by the believer), is replaced by being guided by His Holy Spirit. There are still the Laws of God, but these laws aren't written on stone tablets. They are written in the heart and mind of the believer, when our walk is guided by His Holy Spirit then we will not submit to the lusts of the flesh and we do not need the ten commandments to guide us. We have His Grace that makes it possible to do what we cannot do.
What is your definition of works?
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

Works is any action that is performed. Whether it is a willful work or a spiritual work is the question. A willful work is for instance feeding the poor, looking for a reward. A work of the Spirit, can be that same action, done as a consequence of walking in the Spirit.

The same is true of keeping a commandment, there is a willful keeping of the commandments, because we are indebted to, then it is counted as debt.

Or there is the keeping of the commandment as a consequence of walking in The Spirit, under Grace.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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Originally Posted by Saul View Post
Works is any action that is performed. Whether it is a willful work or a spiritual work is the question. A willful work is for instance feeding the poor, looking for a reward. A work of the Spirit, can be that same action, done as a consequence of walking in the Spirit.

The same is true of keeping a commandment, there is a willful keeping of the commandments, because we are indebted to, then it is counted as debt.

Or there is the keeping of the commandment as a consequence of walking in The Spirit, under Grace.
You said before that works is the result of a renewed mind. But you do not have to be a Christian to do good works (e.g. feed the poor) without a view to a reward. Aetheists can do good works (e.g. feed the poor) out of a concern for them not because they seek a reward.

More over I cannot see why you think a wilful work necessarily is one that seeks a reward. If I decide (I use my will) to go and help people who feed the poor I may do it out solely of compassion. I'm not seeking a reward but It's still a wilfull work because I decided to do it according to your definition.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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Originally Posted by winsome View Post
You said before that works is the result of a renewed mind. But you do not have to be a Christian to do good works (e.g. feed the poor) without a view to a reward. Aetheists can do good works (e.g. feed the poor) out of a concern for them not because they seek a reward.

More over I cannot see why you think a wilful work necessarily is one that seeks a reward. If I decide (I use my will) to go and help people who feed the poor I may do it out solely of compassion. I'm not seeking a reward but It's still a wilfull work because I decided to do it according to your definition.
You asked for my definition, if you do not agree to it, no worries.
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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Originally Posted by Saul View Post
You asked for my definition, if you do not agree to it, no worries.
If we cannot agree on the definition of something as basic as work then discussion is fruitless. Do you not want to explore such a topic or are you satisfied with your own personal definitions of basic terms?
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

I have a question. The Bible says God loves a cheerful giver. I think maybe that's what Saul is driving at? That the best kind of giving is when we do it just because we want to and feel like it? That kind of good deed is the best, I'd say.

But should we say we won't give if we can't find it in ourselves to be cheerful? I say give anyway. Even pretend to be cheerful so people don't feel hurt by knowing you are giving grudgingly. Just stifle the wrong emotions and don't express them since you know they're wrong.

I believe if we can do that, over time God rewards us by making us cheerful about giving and doing good deeds.
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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Originally Posted by Saul View Post
Works is any action that is performed. Whether it is a willful work or a spiritual work is the question. A willful work is for instance feeding the poor, looking for a reward. A work of the Spirit, can be that same action, done as a consequence of walking in the Spirit.

The same is true of keeping a commandment, there is a willful keeping of the commandments, because we are indebted to, then it is counted as debt.

Or there is the keeping of the commandment as a consequence of walking in The Spirit, under Grace.
Shouldn't we let the Scriptures define what work is?
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Old 11-03-2013, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Faith without works is Dead, you need both for Salvation

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
I have a question. The Bible says God loves a cheerful giver. I think maybe that's what Saul is driving at? That the best kind of giving is when we do it just because we want to and feel like it? That kind of good deed is the best, I'd say.

But should we say we won't give if we can't find it in ourselves to be cheerful? I say give anyway. Even pretend to be cheerful so people don't feel hurt by knowing you are giving grudgingly. Just stifle the wrong emotions and don't express them since you know they're wrong.

I believe if we can do that, over time God rewards us by making us cheerful about giving and doing good deeds.
Giuliano, yes it is giving cheerifully and a little more. It becomes almost automatic, it's w/o thought to sacrifice and w/o thought to reward. It's being more focused on caring for other people than focusing on ourselves. We give grudgingly when we think about what it is costing us. Why not focus on how much it benefits the other person or persons?

Winsome, I've got no problem in discussing it further, let's hear what your definition is.

Here's a quick scenario, if I see a person struggling to get into a vehicle, without any thought I'm over there helping that person. I gave no thought to the inconvenience to myself. I was already running late and for instance it took 10 minutes to get them in the vehicle. Then 10 more minutes to give my testimony, then say another 10 minutes to pray for them so they don't have a physical struggle anymore! That made me 30 minutes plus late, but that didn't even enter my mind, during this episode. Afterwards I'm just so much praising and glorifying God that the time sacrificed doesn't even matter.
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