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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > A world without God

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  #1  
Old 09-17-2013, 01:18 PM
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Default A world without God

This is a thread about theodicy.

When I was much younger, I saw a nature documentary on TV that contained an image that, now, some thirty years later, still makes unwanted appearances into my consciousness.
The image is of a baby hippopotamus, standing next to the decomposing hulk of his mother. It stands there timidly,not knowing where else to go.
Nature, red in tooth and claw as it is, offers no pity to the calf and it, too, will perish.
Since then I have learned of much suffering, but somehow the image of this small helpless animal has always stayed with me as the epitome of nature's mercilessness and indifference.

I grew up in a family where God wasn't a subject and I suppose that is the main reason I never became a theist. But since faith looms so large in our world, and moves such consequential levers in the minds of those who believe, it remains an area of interest to me.

Of course, it is impossible to prove a negative. I can't prove Jahweh doesn't exist any more than I can offer proof of the non-existence of Thor, Poseidon or Huitzilopochtli.
But one of the best arguments against the existence of a benevolent entity who takes an interest in the well-being of the sentient creatures he willed into being is that this world doesn't look at all as if such a being exists.

Grover Soto
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2013, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

Anyone who eats meat shouldn't complain about such things. If you're a vegetarian, you're in the clear. If you eat animals, you're willing to kill them to feed your own face. So you're merciless and indifferent. Should God strike you dead to prevent your cruelty to animals? Is that what you want?
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Anyone who eats meat shouldn't complain about such things. If you're a vegetarian, you're in the clear. If you eat animals, you're willing to kill them to feed your own face. So you're merciless and indifferent. Should God strike you dead to prevent your cruelty to animals? Is that what you want?
I think you are missing the point, Giuliano.
I didn't make myself and I did not create carnivory.
I merely find myself here and I wonder if someone who willfully designed the hyena, the Ichneumonidae and the small pox virus has our best interest at heart.
Since you brought it up, I am a pescetarian who used to be an omnivore.
I still kill to eat, but for you to assume this leaves me "merciless and indifferent" is both presumptuous and wrong.

Grover Soto
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroverSoto View Post
I think you are missing the point, Giuliano.
I didn't make myself and I did not create carnivory.
I merely find myself here and I wonder if someone who willfully designed the hyena, the Ichneumonidae and the small pox virus has our best interest at heart.
Since you brought it up, I am a pescetarian who used to be an omnivore.
I still kill to eat, but for you to assume this leaves me "merciless and indifferent" is both presumptuous and wrong.

Grover Soto
Who says God designed it this way? According to Genesis, man was to exercise dominion over the earth. If there is something wrong with nature, we should look inwards.

We like the world the way it is. We like to eat and kill. Some people enjoy killing just for fun. So why complain about God for letting us do what we want?

All the negative aspects of animals you mention are part of human nature that they are bearing for us. When mankind sorts out his own spiritual problems, the animals will be at peace also. Isaiah talks about the day when peace reigns among the animals. That is the way things are intended to be.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

John 3
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

And how about the suffering of plants? Yes, suffering of any kind is sad to "its kind". A lioness kills to eat and feels no shame.
A blade of grass is alive, that is until a deer eats it.
This wonderful/terrible planet runs on flesh. It either serves no higher purpose, or it does serve a higher purpose.
There is an underlying anger that we all must deal with in regards to what appears to be the cruelty of life.
Either choice looks kind of stupid, if you ask me....... and both look correct. The death of the flesh is indeed the death of the flesh. The life of the Spirit is indeed eternal. The flesh has nothing but faith to explain the Spirit, and that desire seems to be the evidence itself, at least to me.
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Last edited by thelowlyfisherman : 09-17-2013 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
When mankind sorts out his own spiritual problems, the animals will be at peace also. Isaiah talks about the day when peace reigns among the animals. That is the way things are intended to be.
So hyenas will become vegetarian?
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
So hyenas will become vegetarian?
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Isaiah 11:6-9
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

And, of course, that is all literal.
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Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

A theodicy (/θiːˈɒdɪsi/ from Greek theos "god" + dike "justice") is an attempt to resolve the evidential problem of evil by reconciling the traditional divine characteristics of omnibenevolence, omnipotence, and omniscience with the occurrence of evil or suffering in the world. Unlike a defense, which tries to demonstrate that God's existence is logically possible in the light of evil, a theodicy provides a framework which claims to make God's existence probable.
Theodicy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Is this what you mean by "theodicy"?

Here is an answer:


Providence and the scandal of evil.

309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175


311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177



174 Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I,25,6.
175 Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, SCG III,71.
176 Cf. St. Augustine, De libero arbitrio 1,1,2: PL 32,1221-1223; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,79,1.
177 St. Augustine, Enchiridion 3,11: PL 40,236.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Creator
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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 09-19-2013 at 05:01 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-18-2013, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: A world without God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
So hyenas will become vegetarian?
Everyone likes a nice spring mix with a bit of feta.
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