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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

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Old 09-15-2013, 08:54 PM
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Question This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

... When the Blood was being shed??? The Blood of Christ, during His Passion, was pouring down his face and arms and body and down the wood of the Holy Cross and unto the ground before Him. So why oh why didn't Jesus say "This is the Blood of the New Covenant" then???

It was not because Jesus couldn't speak. We know that He spoke seven words/sayings from the Cross. So that can't be it.

We know that there were believers present to hear him. His Mother, St. John the Beloved, and St. Mary Magdalene were there. So that can't be it either. (It's not because there were no believers to receive the message).



Scripture records Jesus using the word "covenant" ONLY ONCE in the whole Bible. At what point was that? And WHY? is the key question.


"Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, "All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do." And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the sons of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. Then he took the book of the covenant, and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient." And Moses took the blood and threw it upon the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." (Exodus 24:3-8)

As you can see this is quite a bloody scene. Any detective who walked upon that area would think that there was a murder or homicide. But it wasn't just any killing it was a sacrificial offering and there was AN APPLICATION of that blood to the things of God, the book and the people! The blood had to be applied!

"For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, ..." (Hebrews 9:19)
"... I have called you FRIENDS: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you." (St. John 15:15)
"... he took the blood of the calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, ..." (Heb. 9:19)
NOTICE: the animals for sacrifice were already DEAD. Jesus wasn't dead while suffering on the Cross.
"... saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you." And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (Hebrews 9:20-22)
So, ... where did Jesus speak about the shedding of blood? and the forgiveness of sins? (together)? On the cross? ... Not exactly.
Why didn't Jesus say THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT while the blood was everywhere on Calvary just like the blood was present at the time that Moses declared the Covenant?

FOR THERE IS NO COVENANT WITHOUT BLOOD!


As it is written, "Hence even the first covenant was NOT RATIFIED without blood." (Hebrews 9:18)

So, how could Jesus declare the NEW COVENANT when He did? ... Doesn't there NEED to be BLOOD somehow actually present??? ... In some kind of real application to the people of God?

Ah! ... Or was the Blood of the Sacrifice really, truly, and substantially present indeed?!?

Hmm ... but you would need to walk by faith and not by sight to believe that.




Praised be Jesus Christ, the New Moses!



A. H. J. E.

After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 09-16-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

What Jesus did and said at the Passover Meal, was Symbolic, He used the Bread as the Symbol of His Flesh, and the Wine as the Symbol of His Blood.

That we should eat the Bread and drink the Wine in Remembrance of Him as He said.

Nothing more, nothing less.


JIM
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

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Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
What Jesus did and said at the Passover Meal, was Symbolic, He used the Bread as the Symbol of His Flesh, and the Wine as the Symbol of His Blood.

That we should eat the Bread and drink the Wine in Remembrance of Him as He said.

Nothing more, nothing less.


JIM
I don't understand why this is such an argument.
When you and AHJE partake in the Eucharist it is exactly how each of you say it is.

To you Jim, it is nothing more or nothing less than bread and wine and with Alex the Holy Spirit transforms it on a God known faith believing level to Flesh and Blood.

That is the actuality of your positions and neither of you are lying.
That is not to say either of you may wake up some day and change your positions but that would seem unlikely.

Would you Jim, say the Holy Spirit doesn't have the power to do as Alex suggests\believes?
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
What Jesus did and said at the Passover Meal, was Symbolic, He used the Bread as the Symbol of His Flesh, and the Wine as the Symbol of His Blood.

That we should eat the Bread and drink the Wine in Remembrance of Him as He said.

Nothing more, nothing less.


JIM
Hi Lookinforacity,

... Thanks for responding, ... but how is this a response to the OP and its questions?
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Hi Lookinforacity,

... Thanks for responding, ... but how is this a response to the OP and its questions?

Before I give you my full answer, could you answer one question first?

What is the meaning of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
...
FOR THERE IS NO COVENANT WITHOUT BLOOD!

As it is written, "Hence even the first covenant was NOT RATIFIED without blood." (Hebrews 9:18)

So, how could Jesus declare the NEW COVENANT when He did? ... Doesn't there NEED to be BLOOD somehow actually present??? ... In some kind of real application to the people of God?

Ah! ... Or was the Blood of the Sacrifice really, truly, and substantially present indeed?!?

Hmm ... but you would need to walk by faith and not by sight to believe that.

JIM
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

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Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Before I give you my full answer, could you answer one question first?

What is the meaning of?




JIM
It means that Jesus is the New Moses as prophesied in the Book of Deuteronomy, that He is LIKE MOSES.

Jesus used the word Covenant ONCE and He used it in the same pattern as Moses did.

When Moses said it he was saying it when the Covenant was being ratified, the animal was dead, and the shed blood was present and being applied to the people.

So, ... when did Jesus say the word "Covenant" in the Pattern of Moses?
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
It means that Jesus is the New Moses as prophesied in the Book of Deuteronomy, that He is LIKE MOSES.
In his book Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict pointed out that, in Matthew's gospel, when Jesus goes up the mountain, Matthew presents it as a parallel to Moses going up Sinai to receive the Law. But where Moses went up the mountain to receive the Law from God, Jesus goes up the mountain to proclaim the law as God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Jesus used the word Covenant ONCE and He used it in the same pattern as Moses did.

When Moses said it he was saying it when the Covenant was being ratified, the animal was dead, and the shed blood was present and being applied to the people.

So, ... when did Jesus say the word "Covenant" in the Pattern of Moses?
Regarding the Eucharist, Pope Benedicts says in his second volme of Jesus of Nazareth:

When Jesus speaks of his body he is obviously not referring to the body as opposed to the soul or the spirit, but to the whole, flesh-and-blood person….. “The disciples could understand that he was saying: this is I myself, the Messiah.” (quoted from Rudolf Pesch)

But how can this be? Jesus, after all, is standing there in the midst of his disciples – what is he doing? He is bringing to fulfilment what he said in the Good Shepherd discourse: “No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord”. (Jn 10:18) His life will be taken from him on the Cross, but here he is already laying it down. He transforms his violent death into a free act of self-giving for others and to others.

And he also says: “I have power to lay [my life] down, and I have power to take it up again.”(ibid.). He gives his life, knowing that in doing so he is taking it up again. The act of giving his life includes the Resurrection. Therefore by way of anticipation, he can already distribute himself, because he is already offering his life – himself – and in the process receiving it again. So it is that he can already institute the sacrament in which he becomes the grain of wheat that dies, the sacrament in which he distributes himself to men through the ages in the real multiplication of loaves.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

TO THE OP,

Many talk about the cross, what Jesus said, and how he died. As to why he died, and was dead for three days is pushed aside with a simple, "He died for our sins."

Here is how I reason this event;

1) It was to save the human family from something.
2) If he died for our sins, we would not have to ask to be forgiven for all the sins we do.
3) Why did he have to be dead for three days?
4) How is Genesis 3:15 tied to Jesus death?

Linked to these questions:

5) Would God make the whole human family die for what two people did?
or is there a physical reason we die?

6) Did Gods plan for man go astray...do his plans not work?
Why would the Romans hang Jesus on a cross, when they are known for using a stage.
7) What happens to those on a cross, as to being on a stake.
8) What was the cross before Jesus came?

These questions should answer why Jesus died...
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
TO THE OP,

Many talk about the cross, what Jesus said, and how he died. As to why he died, and was dead for three days is pushed aside with a simple, "He died for our sins."

Here is how I reason this event;

1) It was to save the human family from something.
2) If he died for our sins, we would not have to ask to be forgiven for all the sins we do.
3) Why did he have to be dead for three days?
4) How is Genesis 3:15 tied to Jesus death?

Linked to these questions:

5) Would God make the whole human family die for what two people did?
or is there a physical reason we die?


6) Did Gods plan for man go astray...do his plans not work?
Why would the Romans hang Jesus on a cross, when they are known for using a stage.
7) What happens to those on a cross, as to being on a stake.
8) What was the cross before Jesus came?

These questions should answer why Jesus died...
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! You take the first chapter of Genesis literally? And listen to the way this question is framed. Remind of any serpent, er, anything?
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: This is the BLOOD of the COVENANT! ... Why didn't Jesus say this ON THE CROSS???

Quote:
Originally Posted by winsome View Post
In his book Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict pointed out that, in Matthew's gospel, when Jesus goes up the mountain, Matthew presents it as a parallel to Moses going up Sinai to receive the Law. But where Moses went up the mountain to receive the Law from God, Jesus goes up the mountain to proclaim the law as God.




Regarding the Eucharist, Pope Benedicts says in his second volme of Jesus of Nazareth:

When Jesus speaks of his body he is obviously not referring to the body as opposed to the soul or the spirit, but to the whole, flesh-and-blood person….. “The disciples could understand that he was saying: this is I myself, the Messiah.” (quoted from Rudolf Pesch)

But how can this be? Jesus, after all, is standing there in the midst of his disciples – what is he doing? He is bringing to fulfilment what he said in the Good Shepherd discourse: “No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord”. (Jn 10:18) His life will be taken from him on the Cross, but here he is already laying it down. He transforms his violent death into a free act of self-giving for others and to others.

And he also says: “I have power to lay [my life] down, and I have power to take it up again.”(ibid.). He gives his life, knowing that in doing so he is taking it up again. The act of giving his life includes the Resurrection. Therefore by way of anticipation, he can already distribute himself, because he is already offering his life – himself – and in the process receiving it again. So it is that he can already institute the sacrament in which he becomes the grain of wheat that dies, the sacrament in which he distributes himself to men through the ages in the real multiplication of loaves.
Beautiful, ... thanks!
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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