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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Lucky Charms?

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  #1  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:58 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Lucky Charms?

We are aware that a good luck charm is associated with the occult and whatever power it contains comes from Hell.

A Pagan might carry a talisman for good luck and protection but what if a Christian carries or wears an item that they believe the grace of God will work through. Is it satanic or is there Biblical basis for such a practice?

In the Bible the grace of God worked miracles through the Ark of the Covenant (graven image), bronze serpent (graven image), golden Cherubim and Seraphim (graven images), The blessed hankerchiefs (third class relics), Pauls aprons (Acts 19:11-12), Elija's mantle (2 Kings 2:8), Moses' staff, the robe of Jesus, the use of holy water (numbers 5), holy oil, and a dead man was raised to life by touching the bones of Elisha (first class relic) 2 Kings 13:21.

In the Bible we see examples where the grace of God either healed people or worked miracles through holy images, blessed items, music, oil, water, rock, dirt, bone, clothing and other material things. It is also Biblical that those items can cast out demons; by the grace of God working through them of course. That is one reason why the chief excorcist of Rome has noted that possessed people have an aversion and horror for holy images, sacramentals, and blessed items.

So there is plenty of Biblical basis that the grace of God can work through crucifixes, medals, rosaries, holy water, blessed oil, blessed sacramentals, icons, and relics. It's not being superstitious, It's Biblical.

Another bonus to being Catholic is we have a larger arsenal and take advantage of more of the weapons offered to us.

The Ark of the Covenant was necessary to bring down the walls of Jericho, Peters shadow healed people (the shadow must have been necessary ), sometimes the touch of the apostles or their words were necessary, remember also that Jesus used dirt and spittle on occasion (dirt and spittle were necessary. God said so!)...

...Naman had to plunge into the Jordan seven times to be healed of his leprosy, obediance was necessary, Elijah's cloak was necessary to part the waters 2 Kings 2:8, The staff of Moses was necessary at times, Elisha's bones were necessary to bring the dead man back to life 2 Kings 13:21

Exodus 25:22
22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between
the two cherubim (graven images) that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel
.

Interesting at this time where, how, and by what means God chose to communicate with his people.

In the OT God spoke to the Israelites from the midst of the two Cherubim (graven images) atop the Ark of the Covenant. Israelites prostrated before the Ark not to worship the graven images but to worship the God who chose to dwell there.
Mary is a temple of the Holy Spirit and we dont worship her but the God who dwells within His temple and the Ark of the New Covenant.

God works in mysterious ways through mysterious means.

CCC:
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honour, respect and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magic practices: the Church for her part warns the faithful against it.



Last edited by matt041187 : 12-28-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

I ask how many heads John the Baptist had? How many foreskins did Jesus have?
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:57 AM
Lookinforacity's Avatar
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
So there is plenty of Biblical basis that the grace of God can work through crucifixes, medals, rosaries, holy water, blessed oil, blessed sacramentals, icons, and relics. It's not being superstitious, It's Biblical.

Another bonus to being Catholic is we have a larger arsenal and take advantage of more of the weapons offered to us.

Are these other things really needful to augment to arsenal with which God has already provided His people?

Is there any Biblical teaching by any of the authors of the Bible concerning the proper use of such?
The cases which you cite were special circumstances, and not the norm for the people, which you are saying these other things can be used by.
Elijah, Elisha, Moses, Paul were chosen vessels used of God, I don't believe they can be used as examples of what we can call the norm, in order to make this point.
These items of which you speak, are like a Menorah, or a Star of David might be to the Jews, they are to be used as symbols of Faith, but not as the Religious equivalent of a Talisman, Amulet, Fetish.
The items in themselves do not possess any type of power, they are inanimate objects, it is the placing of special powers by man, to them which constitutes the wrong

Theses are our weapons of Spiritual Warfare, objects are not needed.
2Co 10:3,4
3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)

Eph 6:10-18
10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


JIM
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  #4  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
.

Sadly though MANY don't seem to understand, the ONLY ONES who did these things through , were WORSHIPERS of Jehovah God ,(Exo. 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them). And (Psa. 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth), ANY who refuse do this God's WILL, will be destroyed, this is what Jesus basically shows ,(Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven), so why would he give them such gifts? In the days of old, true!, there were other who could so a few things, like the Egyptian pharaoh who his men try to out do Moses ,concerning his staff turning into a snake, (Exo. 7:8-12). but Moses who had Jehovah's back, snake ate the snake of the pharaoh's magicians. Who DID NOT, have the gift from God, but a TRICK from satan.

MANY today those who have their flocks believing certain items they have are “holy”. Yet they REFUSE to acknowledge Jesus Father having a name, which Jesus made his Father name known ,(John 17:6-8). came by means of satan ,(2Cor. 11:115 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works). WE ALL need to understand Jehovah God DIDN'T need the use of ITEMS, in order to get his point across, or help people. He can just WILL it to happen ,here's an example ,(Acts 7:55,56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God). He wanted Stephen to see into Heaven ,and he did! Jehovah God didn't ANY items to make this happen.

God has a reason to doing what he does, and how he does it, even if we don't totally understand. But for whatever reason he allowed HIS FAITHFUL SERVANTS, to use items. He doesn't want his servants to use them NOW! ,(Exo. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth). And ,(Isa. 44:14-20), shows we shouldn’t worship ANY images, even if it’s spiritual. And Paul says ,(1Cor. 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry). though many will disagree, spiritual items, cross, prayer hand , rosary beads, etc., are idols. Though it suppose to represent god/Jesus, many feel the need to have it. As though they can’t get close to God without them. This makes them idols so We have to stay away from them!

Another trick from satan to ALL who believe one must have them in order to make demons leave. Satan KNOWS, all one has to do is call on the name of the God of Israel, Jehovah IF... they believe his name is even Powerful. Sorry but calling on Jesus, demons will ONLY leave, when they are ready, he knows MANY believe it's Jesus who one should call out to. It's sad that MANY believe God can ONLY help someone through means of an item. MANY people have things like praying hands, rosaries, a “picture of Jesus” ,and crosses, around their house, And STILL demons enter. Those who worship Jehovah God and follow Jesus, knows these things aren't used through him ,(Jehovah), anymore. ONLY through satan, in order for people to believe it does. And they know satan every trick ,(Ephe. 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles, (tricks) of the devil), because they try to stay close to them. peace
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:21 AM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

God is Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

ped
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:52 AM
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
.......How many foreskins did Jesus have?
Are you off on one of your wild tangents again?
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 09-04-2013, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Are you off on one of your wild tangents again?
No, it was a serious question. You might think there could be only one, but there seems to have been several. People were arguing so much over who had the real one that an official decision was made about it. The official one in Italy was stolen in 1983.

Holy Prepuce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2013, 02:07 PM
matt041187
 
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

"It's sad that MANY believe God can ONLY help someone through means of an item."

Who believes that?

I never said God can only work through items. However, the Israelites who were infected and gazed upon the bronze serpent were healed.

"Satan KNOWS, all one has to do is call on the name of the God"...
It wasnt simply by calling out to God that they were saved. They had to obey God and gaze at the bronze serpent.


Numbers 21:9 "So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived."

I suppose those who decided "all I have to do is call out to God for help I dont need to rely on this ridiculous image for healing," would have died.

In the acts of the Apostles the Scripture indicates that the people were sick and possessed until the blessed hankerchiefs and aprons were brought to them.

Did the Leper Naman get healed by simply calling out to God?
Read 2 Kings 5
He had to dip himself into a river seven times. The water was necessary for the healing along with the repititious ritual. Had he not dipped in the water he would have remained a leper regardless of how many times he called out to God.

Im not claiming that blessed items are more important then personal prayer or the word of God but im saying that it is Biblical that at times they were of vital importance (mandatory, crucial, even required)

Last edited by matt041187 : 09-04-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

We humans are forgetful people. Somehow we need reminders. People have rosaries, scapulars, crucifices, crosses, Bibles, holy water, handkerchiefs etc. These items of course are not to be worshiped but should lead us to true worship. We use music or musical instruments as aid to worship. But somehow our hearts and minds should not be on those objects but to the True and Living God.

When we can worship God in Spirit and in truth without or with less of those reminders then we are maturing.

In Psalms , King David says "Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against Thee."

ped
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  #10  
Old 09-04-2013, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: Lucky Charms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt041187 View Post
"It's sad that MANY believe God can ONLY help someone through means of an item."

Who believes that?

I never said God can only work through items. However, the Israelites who were infected and gazed upon the bronze serpent were healed.

"Satan KNOWS, all one has to do is call on the name of the God"...
It wasnt simply by calling out to God that they were saved. They had to obey God and gaze at the bronze serpent.


Numbers 21:9 "So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived."

I suppose those who decided "all I have to do is call out to God for help" I dont need to rely on this ridiculous image for healing, would have died.

In the acts of the apostles it indicates that the people were sick and possessed until the blessed hankerchiefs and aprons were brought to them.

Im not claiming that blessed items are more important then personal prayer or the word of God but im saying that it is Biblical that at times they were of vital importance.
We read too that people fell into idolatry over the bronze serpent. It had to be destroyed. So there is more than one lesson in that. Care is needed in dealing with relics and sacred objects lest we fall into superstition and perhaps even idolatry.

I heard about a Catholic Bishop so vexed in his diocese by how people were behaving he had to remove a statue since someone had started a cult around it and was rebelling against his authority and teaching some strange things. So there are perils to these things. I applaud him and compare him to Hezekiah who destroyed the brass serpent. Unfortunate but necessary.

I think if people are not solid in their faith in God, perhaps it's wise for them to avoid relics and the like. If people have the right understanding and are solid in their faith, then such things are beneficial. So I can't judge the people who don't like them or understand them. Perhaps it's better if they don't have them. Perhaps it would be better for some Catholics not to have them. If they do have them, they need vigilant Bishops to prevent superstition from entering their congregation.

Catholics have at times fallen into superstition over relics as they have over the many holy foreskins and the multiple heads of John the Baptist. This brings the Church itself into disrepute and greater care needs to be exercised, I would say. Any practice that makes the Church look absurd isn't worth it, if you ask me. "All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient."
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