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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ...

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Old 08-12-2013, 11:43 PM
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Question Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ...

Catholic, that is to say, orthodox Christians believe that God is ONE in Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. ... Three Divine Persons ... fine. I believe it. Jesus Divinely Revealed it ... so I believe it. He can neither deceive nor be deceived, ... so I believe it. Got it. ... And yet the Mystery is simply that ... a Mystery.

But I would like us to speak about this Mystery. For now that we know it to be true by Divine Revelation, we need to enter into it with faith ... but not only faith, ... with reason as well. For this Divine Mystery of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity is not contrary to human reason.

I would like us to focus on the definition of the word "Person" or "Hypostasis" and the fact that there is but ONE and only ONE Divine Will. ... There are Three DISTINCT Divine Persons and yet there is but ONE Divine Being and but One Divine Will. I find this baffling to a great degree. I'm sure I am not alone in this. ...

Although from all that I have learned ... I am convinced that the key to this Mystery lies in the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. ... The Holy Spirit. The One Will of God and the One Holy Spirit. Are these ONE AND THE SAME?

What do you say?


A. H. J. E.

After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 08-13-2013 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

Hi AHJE,

Very good subject for discussion and learning. I'd like to add my understanding, which concerns the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

In Proverbs 8, which speaks of Wisdom, we read:
“The LORD begot me, the beginning of his works, the forerunner of his deeds of long ago; From of old I was formed, at the first, before the earth....When he fixed the foundations of earth, then was I beside him as artisan; I was his delight day by day, playing before him all the while, Playing over the whole of his earth, having my delight with human beings.

John 1 refers to these verses: All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made

As does Genesis 1 also: And the spirit of God moved over the waters.

On the secular side, beget means "to produce as an effect" (Power begets power)

Based on my understanding of these verses of Scripture; Wisdom, the Spirit of God and Jesus, the Word of God are all effects of God's divine nature. As being effects of the Divine Nature of the Father, they must by nature be in perfect unity.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Catholic, that is to say, orthodox Christians believe that God is ONE in Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. ... Three Divine Persons ... fine. I believe it. Jesus Divinely Revealed it ... so I believe it. He can neither deceive nor be deceived, ... so I believe it. Got it. ... And yet the Mystery is simply that ... a Mystery.

But I would like us to speak about this Mystery. For now that we know it to be true by Divine Revelation, we need to enter into it with faith ... but not only faith, ... with reason as well. For this Divine Mystery of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity is not contrary to human reason.

I would like us to focus on the definition of the word "Person" or "Hypostasis" and the fact that there is but ONE and only ONE Divine Will. ... There are Three DISTINCT Divine Persons and yet there is but ONE Divine Being and but One Divine Will. I find this baffling to a great degree. I'm sure I am not alone in this. ...

Although from all that I have learned ... I am convinced that the key to this Mystery lies in the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. ... The Holy Spirit. The One Will of God and the One Holy Spirit. Are these ONE AND THE SAME?

What do you say?


A. H. J. E.

After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
If we knew what that WILL was in all it's divine majesty then we could draw an absolute.
Each personage may have different aspects because of personality.
What would you suggest this WILL is?
For everybody to become Catholic?
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Hi AHJE,

Very good subject for discussion and learning. I'd like to add my understanding, which concerns the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

In Proverbs 8, which speaks of Wisdom, we read:
“The LORD begot me, the beginning of his works, the forerunner of his deeds of long ago; From of old I was formed, at the first, before the earth....When he fixed the foundations of earth, then was I beside him as artisan; I was his delight day by day, playing before him all the while, Playing over the whole of his earth, having my delight with human beings.

John 1 refers to these verses: All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made

As does Genesis 1 also: And the spirit of God moved over the waters.

On the secular side, beget means "to produce as an effect" (Power begets power)

Based on my understanding of these verses of Scripture; Wisdom, the Spirit of God and Jesus, the Word of God are all effects of God's divine nature. As being effects of the Divine Nature of the Father, they must by nature be in perfect unity.
One problem though ... God is not an "effect" of anything. He is PURE ACTUALITY. Hence the Son is Pure Actuality, and the Holy Spirit is Pure Actuality. ... They both have all that the Father has ... Pure Actuality.

There is no before and after in God.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:23 PM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

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Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
If we knew what that WILL was in all it's divine majesty then we could draw an absolute.
Each personage may have different aspects because of personality.
What would you suggest this WILL is?
For everybody to become Catholic?
Besides that ... there is the Eternal Will in the Mystery of the Trinity . . .
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:28 PM
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Question Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

What was God WILLING from all Eternity?

What does the movement of His Will look like? ... Isn't there movement if there is LOVE?

... In the BEGINNING we see what? ... MOVEMENT!

"and the spirit of God MOVED over the waters." (Gen. 1:2)

And yet, ... God is not Himself moved ... for there is nothing potential in God.

God is PURE ACTUALITY.

So, ... could it be that the movement of love IN God proceeds from Divine Eternal Rest?

Are you guys with me?
__________________
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 08-16-2013, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post

... In the BEGINNING we see what? ... MOVEMENT!

"and the spirit of God MOVED over the waters." (Gen. 1:2)

And yet, ... God is not Himself moved ...
Does that put God outside the Trinity?
I should think if God is of the Trinity then He should move with His Spirit.
He should be walking with Christ.

God breathed into Adam. That would seem to attribute movement.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

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Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Does that put God outside the Trinity?
I should think if God is of the Trinity then He should move with His Spirit.
He should be walking with Christ.

God breathed into Adam. That would seem to attribute movement.
All I said is that God is not Himself moved. That means that He is unmoved by another.

God is the unmoved Mover.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 08-16-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:25 PM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
All I said is that God is not Himself moved. That means that He is unmoved by another.

God is the unmoved Mover.
What of this then?

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

If someone prays and God answers, is that not also God being moved?

Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Jeremiah 42:4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said unto them, I have heard you; behold, I will pray unto the Lord your God according to your words; and it shall come to pass, that whatsoever thing the Lord shall answer you, I will declare it unto you; I will keep nothing back from you.

Psalm 80:3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.


We also see that at times God has reasons for what He does, responding to His creation.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Why would God give man free will and then pretend He hadn't? Spirit is cause. Matter is effect. Man is so much like God, man also has a will that can cause things. God's Will at times depends on how man uses his will. It would surely be boring for God if things were otherwise. Tedious, dull, and almost pointless.

If someone turns with love towards God out of his own free will, we know that God responds as the father responded in the story of the prodigal son -- running to meet him. This is what God wants from us: That we know He loves us, and perhaps that we might also love Him and each other.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


I do not like to speak much of mysteries. What of our will? Are we using it in a way that conforms to the Will of God? Why discuss some abstruse topic? I repeat: What we can know of the Divine Will is that we love God and our fellow man. We were given free will so we could learn to do this. If we do learn, then our will is also united with the Divine Will. God can move us, and yes, we can move Him. It is His Pleasure to be moved by His children.

John 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


God is also moved by the saints in Heaven. He delights in granting their requests. Their will is part of God's Will. It is His Pleasure and Will to give the saints, whether in Heaven or on the earth, what they ask.

Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Three Divine Persons in God, but only ONE WILL? ... We need to talk about this ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
What of this then?

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

If someone prays and God answers, is that not also God being moved?

Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Jeremiah 42:4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said unto them, I have heard you; behold, I will pray unto the Lord your God according to your words; and it shall come to pass, that whatsoever thing the Lord shall answer you, I will declare it unto you; I will keep nothing back from you.

Psalm 80:3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.


We also see that at times God has reasons for what He does, responding to His creation.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Why would God give man free will and then pretend He hadn't? Spirit is cause. Matter is effect. Man is so much like God, man also has a will that can cause things. God's Will at times depends on how man uses his will. It would surely be boring for God if things were otherwise. Tedious, dull, and almost pointless.

If someone turns with love towards God out of his own free will, we know that God responds as the father responded in the story of the prodigal son -- running to meet him. This is what God wants from us: That we know He loves us, and perhaps that we might also love Him and each other.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


I do not like to speak much of mysteries. What of our will? Are we using it in a way that conforms to the Will of God? Why discuss some abstruse topic? I repeat: What we can know of the Divine Will is that we love God and our fellow man. We were given free will so we could learn to do this. If we do learn, then our will is also united with the Divine Will. God can move us, and yes, we can move Him. It is His Pleasure to be moved by His children.

John 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


God is also moved by the saints in Heaven. He delights in granting their requests. Their will is part of God's Will. It is His Pleasure and Will to give the saints, whether in Heaven or on the earth, what they ask.

Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
The verses which you have posted are fine ... but these are ways of speaking which convey something of God's Providence and interaction with His creatures, even His children. ... How does that negate THEOLOGICALLY that God is the unmoved Mover of His Creation? ... And what about within God's own Inner Life of LOVE?

You yourself have said that the Saint's will is part of God's Will. It is God Who inspires them to say and do things. God knows all things before they come to pass. Jesus knew, as God, that Mary would make a request known to him concerning the wine running out at the wedding at Cana. And all this was permitted ... by God. It doesn't mean that she literally changed Jesus' Mind (as God) ... or that Moses changed God's mind for the Israelites ... eventhough to US it seems that way. But God is Immutable, Unchanging in Being, in Mind, or Will.

What do you say?
__________________
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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