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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > How do people get NOT saved?

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  #1  
Old 07-25-2013, 02:57 PM
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Default How do people get NOT saved?

I once heard of a young man in church ask his pastor what terrible thing he would have to do to
go to hell. His pastor answered: "You don't have to do anything terrible: just bide your time and
you'll get there because hell isn't an option; no, hell is the default.


Buen Camino
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weberhome02 View Post
I once heard of a young man in church ask his pastor what terrible thing he would have to do to
go to hell. His pastor answered: "You don't have to do anything terrible: just bide your time and
you'll get there because hell isn't an option; no, hell is the default.


Buen Camino
/
What a naive thing to say. God doesn't send innocent people to hell. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:46 PM
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Default How do people get NOT saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.
†. Rom 3:23 . . All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

The grammar of that indictment is interesting. "have sinned" is past tense and "all" excludes no
one: indicating that even people yet to be born are already on the books as sinful beings; ergo:
their default destiny is hell before they are even born. For example, according to the Census
Bureau's estimation, 10,800 baby Americans were born in the last 24 hours. Every one of them is
already on the road to hell. Now don't get upset with me. I'm not saying infants to go hell. All I'm
saying is; their destiny in hell is a foregone conclusion. In point of fact, the Bible says that infants
are liars fresh out of the womb.

†. Ps 58:3 . .The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born,
speaking lies.

Which babies are wicked liars? Well according to Rom 3:23: all of them; no exceptions.


Buen Camino
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weberhome02 View Post
†. Rom 3:23 . . All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

The grammar of that indictment is interesting. "have sinned" is past tense and "all" excludes no
one: indicating that even people yet to be born are already on the books as sinful beings; ergo:
their default destiny is hell before they are even born. For example, according to the Census
Bureau's estimation, 10,800 baby Americans were born in the last 24 hours. Every one of them is
already on the road to hell. Now don't get upset with me. I'm not saying infants to go hell. All I'm
saying is; their destiny in hell is a foregone conclusion. In point of fact, the Bible says that infants
are liars fresh out of the womb.

†. Ps 58:3 . .The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born,
speaking lies.

Which babies are wicked liars? Well according to Rom 3:23: all of them; no exceptions.


Buen Camino
/
I cannot agree. It doesn't say all babies go astray as soon as they are born. It says the wicked. And just because all have sinned doesn't mean all are desperately wicked.

In Psalm 58, David is asking God to render justice. He says the righteous will rejoice to see the vengeance of God against the wicked. Some are wicked from birth, some are elect.

You seem to have a gloomy picture of things, imagining that God is losing a battle against the Devil. If God is not willing that any should perish, why did He not do things better so that Satan doesn't get most people? You seem to see Satan as more powerful than God.

I would urge caution. You appear to spend a lot of time imagining others going to hell. You may wind up there yourself by devoting too much time and energy thinking how others are going there.
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  #5  
Old 07-25-2013, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
You may wind up there yourself by devoting too much time and energy thinking how
others are going there.
Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a believer; therefore I'm entitled to immunity from prosecution.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe in God who sent me,
have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from
death into life.

Eternal life is a species of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process.
Therefore, believers are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our
Lord.

In the passages below; note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb. It's present tense rather
than future; indicating that believers have eternal life right now-- no delay, and no waiting
period.

†. John 3:36 . .He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. John 5:24 . .I assure you, those who heed my message and trust in God who sent me, have
eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from
Death into Life.

†. 1John 5:13 . .I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you
may know that you have eternal life.

The possession of eternal life is crucial because according to God's testimony, as an expert
witness in all matters pertaining to His own son, people who lack eternal life also lack His son;
viz: they are quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . .And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is
in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; whoever does not have this life, does not have
God's son.

Refusal to accept God's testimony is all the same as saying that He's a person of questionable
integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1John 5:10-12 . .Anyone who does not believe God insinuates that He's a liar, because he has
not believed the testimony God has given about His son.


Buen Camino
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2013, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weberhome02 View Post
Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a believer; therefore I'm entitled to immunity from prosecution.
What a character!
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2013, 06:37 AM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

I would say that how people NOT get saved is how they relate to the Inner Light that has been given them.

Interestingly, the new Pope, Francis, has in his new encyclical, LUMEN FIDEI spoken of the Inner Light much as a Quaker, at the start of the letter:

1. The light of Faith: this is how the Church’s tradition speaks of the great gift brought by Jesus. In John’s Gospel, Christ says of himself: "I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness" (Jn 12:46). Saint Paul uses the same image: "God who said ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ has shone in our hearts" (2 Cor 4:6). The pagan world, which hungered for light, had seen the growth of the cult of the sun god, Sol Invictus, invoked each day at sunrise. Yet though the sun was born anew each morning, it was clearly incapable of casting its light on all of human existence. The sun does not illumine all reality; its rays cannot penetrate to the shadow of death, the place where men’s eyes are closed to its light. "No one — Saint Justin Martyr writes — has ever been ready to die for his faith in the sun".[1] Conscious of the immense horizon which their faith opened before them, Christians invoked Jesus as the true sun "whose rays bestow life".[2] To Martha, weeping for the death of her brother Lazarus, Jesus said: "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?" (Jn 11:40). Those who believe, see; they see with a light that illumines their entire journey, for it comes from the risen Christ, the morning star which never sets.

An illusory light?

2. Yet in speaking of the light of faith, we can almost hear the objections of many of our contemporaries. In modernity, that light might have been considered sufficient for societies of old, but was felt to be of no use for new times, for a humanity come of age, proud of its rationality and anxious to explore the future in novel ways. Faith thus appeared to some as an illusory light, preventing mankind from boldly setting out in quest of knowledge. The young Nietzsche encouraged his sister Elisabeth to take risks, to tread "new paths… with all the uncertainty of one who must find his own way", adding that "this is where humanity’s paths part: if you want peace of soul and happiness, then believe, but if you want to be a follower of truth, then seek".[3] Belief would be incompatible with seeking. From this starting point Nietzsche was to develop his critique of Christianity for diminishing the full meaning of human existence and stripping life of novelty and adventure. Faith would thus be the illusion of light, an illusion which blocks the path of a liberated humanity to its future.

3. In the process, faith came to be associated with darkness. There were those who tried to save faith by making room for it alongside the light of reason. Such room would open up wherever the light of reason could not penetrate, wherever certainty was no longer possible. Faith was thus understood either as a leap in the dark, to be taken in the absence of light, driven by blind emotion, or as a subjective light, capable perhaps of warming the heart and bringing personal consolation, but not something which could be proposed to others as an objective and shared light which points the way. Slowly but surely, however, it would become evident that the light of autonomous reason is not enough to illumine the future; ultimately the future remains shadowy and fraught with fear of the unknown. As a result, humanity renounced the search for a great light, Truth itself, in order to be content with smaller lights which illumine the fleeting moment yet prove incapable of showing the way. Yet in the absence of light everything becomes confused; it is impossible to tell good from evil, or the road to our destination from other roads which take us in endless circles, going nowhere.

A light to be recovered

4. There is an urgent need, then, to see once again that faith is a light, for once the flame of faith dies out, all other lights begin to dim. The light of faith is unique, since it is capable of illuminating every aspect of human existence. A light this powerful cannot come from ourselves but from a more primordial source: in a word, it must come from God. Faith is born of an encounter with the living God who calls us and reveals his love, a love which precedes us and upon which we can lean for security and for building our lives. Transformed by this love, we gain fresh vision, new eyes to see; we realize that it contains a great promise of fulfilment, and that a vision of the future opens up before us. Faith, received from God as a supernatural gift, becomes a light for our way, guiding our journey through time. On the one hand, it is a light coming from the past, the light of the foundational memory of the life of Jesus which revealed his perfectly trustworthy love, a love capable of triumphing over death. Yet since Christ has risen and draws us beyond death, faith is also a light coming from the future and opening before us vast horizons which guide us beyond our isolated selves towards the breadth of communion. We come to see that faith does not dwell in shadow and gloom; it is a light for our darkness. Dante, in the Divine Comedy, after professing his faith to Saint Peter, describes that light as a "spark, which then becomes a burning flame and like a heavenly star within me glimmers".[4] It is this light of faith that I would now like to consider, so that it can grow and enlighten the present, becoming a star to brighten the horizon of our journey at a time when mankind is particularly in need of light.


Francis is fascinating in how Quaker-like the start of his teaching is.

We must turn from the darkness and walk in the light that has been engifted to us by God; else, we are lost.

Those who turn from the light to the darkness are NOT saved.


Peace be with you!
__________________
The humble, meek, merciful, just, pious and devout souls are everywhere of one religion; and when death has taken off the mask, they will know one another though the divers liveries they wear here make them strangers.
William Penn (1644-1718) from Some Fruits of Solitude (1718)

Last edited by HOLLAND : 07-26-2013 at 07:23 AM.
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:30 AM
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Default How do people get NOT saved?

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
What a character!
I assure you there's nothing new and/or unusual about the information I posted in #6. It's all good
solid, old-time Baptist theology. But if this is your first encounter with those kinds of beliefs; I
can easily sympathize with your adverse reaction to it.

BTW: People usually ask me: "Well; if believers have eternal life right now, then why do they
still die just like everybody else?"

The answer to that is eternal life and immortality aren't the same thing. While true that believers
have eternal life now; they don't get immortality till their resurrection. In point of fact; it is very
possible to be standing right next to someone with eternal life and not know it because eternal
life is a spirit kind of life rather than a physical kind of life.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of The Spirit is
spirit.

†. John 3:8 . .The wind moves about where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know
where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of The Spirit.

In other words: eternal life is an invisible kind of life that can't be detected with a full body
scanner, or an X-ray machine; nor with an oscilloscope, or an EKG, or a CatScan or an MRI.

Jesus had eternal life.

†. John 5:26-27 . .For as the Father has Life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have Life
in himself

†. 1John 1:1-2 . . What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our
eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life-- and the life was
manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was
with the Father and was manifested to us

But was Jesus immortal? No; his crucifixion easily removes all doubt as to that aspect of his
existence. He didn't obtain immortality until his resurrection

†. Rom 6:9 . . For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death
no longer has mastery over him.

Believers expect to be immortal in their own resurrections.

†. Rom 8:23-25 . .We ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait
eagerly for our adoption as sons: the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.
But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for
what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

†. 1Cor 15:51-54 . . Behold, I show you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put
on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put
on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the
saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.


Buen Camino
/

Last edited by weberhome02 : 07-26-2013 at 11:35 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2013, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weberhome02 View Post
[font="Times New Roman"][size=3]I assure you there's nothing new and/or unusual about the information I posted in #6. It's all good
solid, old-time Baptist theology.
It might be Baptist theology, but I wouldn't call it good, solid or that old-time.
Quote:
But if this is your first encounter with those kinds of beliefs; I
can easily sympathize with your adverse reaction to it.
No, I've met people who thought they were immune from going to hell. Everyone else might go there but not them. They were special.
Quote:
BTW: People usually ask me: "Well; if believers have eternal life right now, then why do they
still die just like everybody else?"

The answer to that is eternal life and immortality aren't the same thing.
Do you know how strange it is to say eternal life and immortality aren't the same thing? It sounds like Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland.


Quote:
While true that believers
have eternal life now; they don't get immortality till their resurrection. In point of fact; it is very
possible to be standing right next to someone with eternal life and not know it because eternal
life is a spirit kind of life rather than a physical kind of life.

†. John 3:6 . .That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of The Spirit is
spirit.

†. John 3:8 . .The wind moves about where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know
where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of The Spirit.
Can you move like the wind? Or are you still stuck in your fleshly body?
Quote:
In other words: eternal life is an invisible kind of life that can't be detected with a full body
scanner, or an X-ray machine; nor with an oscilloscope, or an EKG, or a CatScan or an MRI.

Jesus had eternal life.

†. John 5:26-27 . .For as the Father has Life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have Life
in himself

†. 1John 1:1-2 . . What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our
eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life-- and the life was
manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was
with the Father and was manifested to us

But was Jesus immortal? No; his crucifixion easily removes all doubt as to that aspect of his
existence. He didn't obtain immortality until his resurrection

†. Rom 6:9 . . For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death
no longer has mastery over him.

Believers expect to be immortal in their own resurrections.

†. Rom 8:23-25 . .We ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait
eagerly for our adoption as sons: the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.
But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for
what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Then why talk about being saved already?

Quote:
1Cor 15:51-54 . . Behold, I show you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put
on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put
on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the
saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.
Did Paul lie to the Corinthians? Did they all sleep without being changed?
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  #10  
Old 07-26-2013, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: How do people get NOT saved?

Lets look at this from another perspective. Hell is a term for a condition. A condition of separation from God. A condition chosen for us by our forefather Adam. It is more complicated than just just God's anger or meanness. We could equate the condition to a virus. A spiritual virus. One that has infected all humanity. Like all viruses it takes over the host and transform the host cells into an environment suitable for it's own reproduction. It produces rebellion. Saten is the carrier so everyone he touched became infected. We are all born infected. In that sense it is the default condition for all man kind. If we refuse the antivirus in the blood of Christ we remain in that condition.

God's judgment is only that none of the infected shall escape the quarantine of this planet. In the fullness of time the lake of fire will become the place of quarentine for all who refused to accept the blood of Christ. The choice is ours to make. To some extent we can help our children make the decision by what we teach them. Ultimately however they will decide for themselves.

We could say then that refusing the help procured for us by Christ results in our remaining in the default condition. Jesus is the author of salvation. He can chose to write a paragraph for those somehow prevented from using the normal pathway to salvation. The thief on the cross being an example. The innocent children being another.
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