True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-11-2013, 07:17 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,127
Default Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?
I believe this question is important, because it addresses our destiny more than what we know about other subjects.

Please share your views and hopefully we will agree or have a truthful insight.

ped
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-11-2013, 07:56 PM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,208
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Do you remember this thread?: "Assurance" isn't Assuring
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-11-2013, 11:21 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,127
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Do you remember this thread?: "Assurance" isn't Assuring
No I do not. Can you summarize it for us ?
ped
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-11-2013, 11:39 PM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,435
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpidioLGagolinan View Post
No I do not. Can you summarize it for us ?
ped
I can.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. People are not saved now, except figuratively speaking. They will be saved when they reach the end of their lives successfully.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-11-2013, 11:50 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,127
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
I can.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. People are not saved now, except figuratively speaking. They will be saved when they reach the end of their lives successfully.
Can't argue with Scriptures. Next question: How can we endure unto the end, by our own effort or will or through the help from above ?

ped
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-12-2013, 07:14 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,435
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpidioLGagolinan View Post
Can't argue with Scriptures. Next question: How can we endure unto the end, by our own effort or will or through the help from above ?
I'd say both. God gives us the power and endurance, so we shouldn't say we can't do it.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-12-2013, 08:28 AM
HOLLAND's Avatar
Knights of the Forum
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,428
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Hi Ped.


I think that we can be sure of our salvation, after a certain point. There is, also, the possibility of making a shipwreck of our faith.

The Quaker position could be summarized as follows, from Robert Barclays, Apology for the True Christian Divinity (1676), Proposition 9:

THE NINTH PROPOSITION

Concerning Perseverance, and the Possibility of Falling from Grace

Although this gift and inward grace of God be sufficient to work out salvation, yet in those in whom it is resisted it both may and doth become their condemnation. Moreover, they in whose hearts it hath wrought in part to purify and sanctify them in order to their further perfection may by disobedience fall from it, "turn it to wantonness," "make shipwreck of faith" (1 Tim. 1:19), and "after having tasted the heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, again fall away" (Heb. 6:4-6), yet such an increase and stability in the Truth may, in this life, be attained, from which there can not be a total apostasy.


I. The first sentence of this proposition hath already been treated of in the Fifth and Sixth Propositions, where it hath been shown that that Light which is given for life and salvation becomes the condemnation of those that refuse it, and therefore is already proved in those places where did demonstrate the possibility of man's resisting the Grace and Spirit of God; and indeed it is so apparent in the Scriptures that it cannot be denied by such as will but seriously consider these testimonies: Prov. 1:24-26; John 3:18-19; 2 Thess. 2:11-12; Acts 7:51, and 13:46; Rom. 1:18. As for the other part of it, that they in whom this grace may have wrought in a good measure in order to purify and sanctify them, tending to their further perfection, may afterwards through disobedience fall away, &c., the testimonies of the Scripture included in the proposition itself are sufficient to prove it to men of unbiased judgments. But because as to this part our cause is common with many other Protestants I shall be the more brief in it. For it is not my design to do that which is done already, neither do I covet to appear knowing by writing much; but simply purpose to present to the world a faithful account of our principles and briefly to let them understand what we have to say for ourselves.

II. From these scriptures then included in the proposition (not to mention many more which might be urged) I argue thus:

Arg. 1. If men may turn the grace of God into wantonness, then they must once have had it:

But the first is true,

Therefore also the second.

Arg. 2. If men may make shipwreck of faith, they must once have had it, neither could they ever have had true faith without the grace of God.

But the first is true,

Therefore also the last.

Arg. 3. If men may have tasted of the heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and afterwards fall away, they must needs have known in measure the operation of God's saving Grace and Spirit, without which no man could taste the heavenly gift, nor yet partake of the Holy Spirit:

But the first is true,

Therefore also the last.

Secondly, Seeing the contrary doctrine is built upon this false hypothesis, that Grace is not given for salvation to any but to a certain elect number, which cannot lose it, and that all the rest of mankind, by an absolute decree, are debarred from Grace and salvation; that being destroyed, this falls to the ground. Now as that doctrine of theirs is wholly inconsistent with the daily practice of those that preach it, in that they exhort people to believe and be saved; while in the meantime, if they belong to the decree of reprobation, it is simply impossible for them so to do, and, if to the decree of election, it is needless; seeing it is as impossible to them to miss of it, as hath been before demonstrated: so also in this matter of perseverance, their practice and principle are no less inconsistent and contradictory, for while they daily exhort people to be faithful to the end, showing them, if they continue not, they shall be cut off, and fall short of the reward: which is very true, but no less inconsistent with that doctrine, that affirms there is no hazard, because no possibility of departing from the least measure of true Grace. Which if true, it is to no purpose to beseech them to stand, to whom God hath made it impossible to fall. I shall not longer insist upon the probation of this, seeing what is said may suffice to answer my design, and that the thing is also abundantly proved by many of the same judgment. That this was the doctrine of the primitive Protestants, thence appears, that the Augustan confession condemns it as an error of the Anabaptists to say that they who once are justified cannot lose the Holy Spirit. Many suchlike sayings are to be found in the common places of Philip Melancthon. Voss, in his Pelagian History (lib. 6), testifies that this was the common opinion of the Fathers; in the confirmation of the twelfth thesis (page 587) he hath these words: "That this, which we have said was the common sentiment of antiquity, those at present can only deny, who otherways perhaps are men not unlearned, but nevertheless in antiquity altogether strangers," &c. These things thus observed, I come to the objections of our opposers.

III. Obj. First, they allege that those places mentioned of "making shipwreck of faith," are only to be understood of seeming faith, and not of a real true faith.

Answ. This objection is very weak, and apparently contrary to the text (1 Tim. 1:19), where the apostle addeth "to faith a good conscience," by way of complaint; whereas, if their faith had been only seeming and hypocritical, the men had been better without it than with it, neither had they been worthy of blame for losing that which in itself was evil. But the apostle expressly adds "and of a good conscience," which shows it was real, neither can it be supposed that men could truly attain a good conscience without the operation of God's saving Grace; far less that a good conscience doth consist with a seeming false and hypocritical faith. Again, these places of the apostle, being spoken by way of regret, clearly import that these attainments they had fallen from were good and real, not false and deceitful, else he would not have regretted their falling from them. And so he saith positively, "They tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," &c., not that they seemed to be so, which showeth this objection is very frivolous.

Obj. Secondly, they allege (Phil. 1:6), "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ," &c., and (1 Pet. 1:5): "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

Answ. These scriptures, as they do not affirm anything positively contrary to us, so they cannot be understood otherwise than as the condition is performed upon our part, seeing salvation is no otherways proposed there, but upon certain necessary conditions to be performed by us, as hath been above proved, and as our adversaries also acknowledge, as (Rom. 8:13): "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." And (Heb. 3:14): "We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." For if these places of the Scripture upon which they build their objection were to be admitted without these conditions, it would manifestly overturn the whole tenor of their exhortations throughout all their writings. Some other objections there are of the same nature, which are solved by the same answers, which also, because largely treated of by others, I omit, to come to that testimony of the Truth which is more especially ours in this matter, and is contained in the latter part of the proposition in these words: "Yet such an increase and stability in the Truth may in this life be attained, from which there cannot be a total apostasy."

IV. As, in the explanation of the fifth and sixth propositions I observed that some that had denied the errors of others concerning reprobation, and affirmed the universality of Christ's death, did notwithstanding fall short in sufficiently holding forth the Truth, and so gave the contrary party an occasion by their defects to be strengthened in their errors: so it may be said in this case. As upon the one hand they err who affirm that the least degree of true and saving grace cannot be fallen from, so do they err, upon the other hand, that deny any such stability to be attained from which there cannot be a total and final apostasy. And betwixt these two extremes lieth the Truth, apparent in the Scriptures, which God hath revealed unto us by the testimony of his Spirit, and which also we are made sensible of by our own experience. And even as in the former controversy was observed, so also in this the defence of Truth will readily appear, to such as seriously weigh the matter: for the arguments upon both hands, rightly applied, will, as to this, hold good; and the objections, which are strong, as they are respectively urged against the two opposite false opinions, are here easily solved by the establishing of this Truth. For all the arguments which these allege, that affirm there can be no falling away, may well be received upon the one part, as of those who have attained to this stability & establishment, and their objections solved by this confession: so, upon the other hand, the arguments alleged, from Scripture testimonies, by those that affirm the possibility of falling away, may well be received of such as are not come to this establishment, though having attained a measure of true grace. Thus then the contrary batterings of our adversaries, who miss the Truth, do concur the more strongly to establish it, while they are destroying each other. But lest this may not seem to suffice to satisfy such as judge it always possible for the best of men, before they die, to fall away, I shall add, for the proof of it, some brief considerations from some few testimonies of the Scripture.

V. And first, I freely acknowledge that it is good for all to be humble, and in this respect not overconfident, so as to lean to this, to foster themselves in iniquity, or lie down in security as if they had attained this condition, seeing watchfulness and diligence is of indispensable necessity to all mortal men, so long as they breathe in this world: for God will have this to be the constant practice of a Christian, that thereby he may be the more fit to serve him, and better armed against all the daily temptations of the enemy. For since "the wages of sin is death," there is no man, while he sinneth and is subject thereunto, but may lawfully suppose himself capable of perishing. Hence the apostle Paul himself saith (1 Cor. 9:27): "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Here the apostle supposes it possible for him to be a castaway, and yet it may be judged he was far more advanced in the inward work of regeneration, when he wrote that epistle, than many who nowadays too presumptuously suppose they cannot fall away, because they feel themselves to have attained some small degree of true grace. But the apostle makes use of this supposition or possibility of his being a castaway (as I before observed) as an inducement to him to be watchful, "I keep under my body, lest," &c. Nevertheless the same apostle, at another time, in the sense and feeling of God's holy power, and in the dominion thereof, finding himself a conqueror therethrough over sin and his soul's enemies, maketh no difficulty to affirm (Rom. 8:38): "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life," &c., which clearly showeth that he had attained a condition, from which he knew he could not fall away.

But secondly, it appears such a condition is attainable because we are exhorted to it, and, as hath been proved before, the Scripture never proposeth to us things impossible. Such an exhortation we have from the apostle (2 Pet. 1:10): "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure."1 And though there be a condition here proposed, yet since we have already proved that it is possible to fulfil this condition, then also the promise annexed thereunto may be attained. And since, where assurance is wanting, there is still a place left for doubtings and despairs, if we should affirm it never attainable, then should there never be a place known by the saints in this world, wherein they might be free of doubting and despair: which, as it is most absurd in itself, so it is contrary to the manifest experience of thousands.

Thirdly, God hath given to many of his saints and children, and is ready to give unto all, a full and certain assurance that they are his, and that no power shall be able to pluck them out of his hand. But this assurance would be no assurance, if those, who are so assured were not established and confirmed beyond all doubt and hesitation. If so, then surely there is no possibility for such to miss of that, which God hath assured them of. And that there is such assurance attainable in this life, the Scripture abundantly declareth, both in general, and as to particular persons. As first (Rev. 3:12): "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out," &c., which containeth a general promise unto all. Hence the apostle speaks of some that are sealed (2 Cor. 1:22): "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts": wherefore the Spirit so sealing is called the earnest or "pledge of our inheritance" (Eph. 1:13), "In whom ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise." And therefore the apostle Paul, not only in that of the Romans above noted, declareth himself to have attained that condition, but (2 Tim. 4:7) he affirmeth in these words, "I have fought a good fight," &c., which also many good men have, and do witness. And therefore, as there can be nothing more manifest than that which the manifest experience of this time showeth, and therein is found agreeable to the experience of former times, so we see there have been both of old, and of late, that have turned the grace of God into wantonness, that have fallen from their faith and integrity, thence we may safely conclude such a falling away possible. We also see that some of old and of late have attained a certain assurance, some time before they departed, that they should inherit eternal life, and have accordingly died in that good hope. Of and concerning whom the Spirit of God testified that they are saved. Wherefore we also see such a state is attainable in this life, from which there is not a falling away. For seeing the Spirit of God did so testify, it was not possible that they should perish, concerning whom he who cannot lie thus bare witness.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editor's Notes
1. Later editors complete the 2 Peter quote with "for if ye do these things ye shall never fall."


[From the Sippel Online Text]

The above has long been my belief. I came to it in a walk with the Spirit and with scripture before I came to know the works of Robert Barclay. Barclay, I understand, pretty well summarizes the belief of many, both Quakers and non-Quakers, about this issue.



Peace be with you!
__________________
The humble, meek, merciful, just, pious and devout souls are everywhere of one religion; and when death has taken off the mask, they will know one another though the divers liveries they wear here make them strangers.
William Penn (1644-1718) from Some Fruits of Solitude (1718)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-12-2013, 12:29 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,127
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
I'd say both. God gives us the power and endurance, so we shouldn't say we can't do it.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Is both, 50-50 or 1 ours and 99% God's ?

ped
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-12-2013, 12:39 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,127
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

To Holland,

Thanks for your response. I have a weakness though in long articles though it is needed at times. As far as shipwreck of our faith , what I learn from Baptists is those who apparently lost their salvation never got it in the first place, so the endurance till the end applies here. Put in another words people start or expressed their commitment to Jesus Christ but the proof of real salvation is people endure . We or they may fall but we get back or get up and continue our journey.

ped
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Amadeus's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,170
Default Re: Can we be sure of our salvation or could we lose our salvation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpidioLGagolinan View Post
... what I learn from Baptists is those who apparently lost their salvation never got it in the first place, so the endurance till the end applies here.
It could be that they are correct about not really losing what a person never had, but who is able to say what a person really did or did not have other than God and possibly, just possibly, the person?

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Church Salvation Is Unrelated To God's Salvation DrFrank Bible Chat 9 12-09-2010 10:21 PM
Can We Lose our Salvation? Amadeus Bible Chat 141 08-11-2010 11:10 PM
Salvation SolaVerbumDei General Discussions 33 11-25-2009 03:27 PM
Salvation Windsong General Discussions 7 06-09-2009 05:30 PM
Consider this as what should come after salvation Croref General Discussions 23 03-15-2009 12:40 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:28 AM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29