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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GOD.

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  #1  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:51 AM
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Lightbulb Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GOD.

Jesus is the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. As such His Personhood is Divine, not human.
Jesus was never a human person and he never will be. Jesus was, is, and ever shall be a Divine Person, God Himself. He is no less Divine than His Father, ... no less Divine than the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God Whole and Entire.

This is why the Blessed Mary is called the Virgin Mother of "Immanuel" in Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible). (Is. 7:14)
IM - ANU - EL
With Us is God.

Mary is Mother of God-With-Us.


This is why St. Elizabeth exclaimed, filled with the Holy Ghost, that Mary is the Mother of her Kyrios, Adonai, ... Mother of her Lord, that is to say, Mother of her God. (St. Luke 1:43)

Moms are mothers of persons, ... not mothers of bodies or natures. Moms are mothers of persons with a name.
"And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS.
For he shall save his people from their sins." (St. Matthew 1:21)

ONLY GOD SAVES. This is basically what "Jesus" means.
Mary is the Mother of God Himself.



Jesus did not become God at a later point in time (at his Baptism or at his Resurrection).
Jesus was God from all eternity and even at the Moment of His Incarnation, when Mary said her YES to God in the Fullness of Time (Gal. 4:4).


"And Mary said:
Behold the handmaid of the Lord;
be it done to me according to thy word.
..." (St. Luke 1:38)
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ..." (St. John 1:14)
"... And the angel departed from her." (St. Luke 1:38)





Have a Holy and Blessed Solemnity of Mary Mother of God!


Mary was and is and ever shall be the Mother of God the Son Who assumed a real Human Nature in the Womb of Mary.


"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne." (Apocalypse 12:5)


Praised be Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary (the God-Bearer)!


A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 01-01-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:50 PM
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Default Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Jesus was never a human person and he never will be.
Then how would you explain this verse?

"For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin." Heb 4:15 (Douay-Rheims)
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:45 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

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Then how would you explain this verse?

"For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin." Heb 4:15 (Douay-Rheims)
Yes, ... Jesus was tempted inasmuch as He possessed a real and true Human Nature. This does not mean that the Subject or Person of that Nature is human. Flesh and Blood cannot reveal to you Who the Son of Man IS. That is to say, you need Divine Revelation to know WHO (the Personhood of) Jesus really is.

God bless you.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Yes, ... Jesus was tempted inasmuch as He possessed a real and true Human Nature. This does not mean that the Subject or Person of that Nature is human. Flesh and Blood cannot reveal to you Who the Son of Man IS. That is to say, you need Divine Revelation to know WHO (the Personhood of) Jesus really is.

God bless you.
While your conclusion may be within the realm of logic, it serves no purpose I can see. What is wrong with Jesus being human? Perhaps you have a catechism reference to support your viewpoint or better yet a scriptural one. I am not really expecting to be convinced that you are correct, but I am interested in seeing where you got such a viewpoint.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:58 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
While your conclusion may be within the realm of logic, it serves no purpose I can see. What is wrong with Jesus being human? Perhaps you have a catechism reference to support your viewpoint or better yet a scriptural one. I am not really expecting to be convinced that you are correct, but I am interested in seeing where you got such a viewpoint.
When Jesus said, "Who do you say that I am?" He was referring to His ONE Personhood.

The Son Pre-Existed His Incarnation as God-Man. He said in St. John 8, Before Abraham came to be, I AM. His Person is that of the Eternal Word (God the Son).

I see no biblical basis or even anything which does not contradict reason to suppose that Jesus is two persons. Then this would give us a Quarternity rather than a Trinity. Jesus said to Baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:45 PM
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Arrow Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

God could have created a more beautiful universe, a more beautiful earth, with more beautiful flowers ...
BUT He COULD NOT nor WOULD NOT Create a more Beautiful Mother ...



Blessed be the Name of Mary, Virgin and Mother.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

Alex,

I assume that you know that there is a debate over the statement that Jesus is "not a human person." Of course, the statement that Christ is a divine person is not problematic. Jesus Christ is a divine person. There is no doubt of this. However, to add that He is "not a human person" is problematic, as the human nature was assumed fully enhypostatically.

For example, the statement that His personhood is not human is problematic when looking at St. Agatho and the 6th Ecumenical Council:

"because the same Lord Jesus Christ Himself is both perfect God and perfect man, of two and in two natures: and after his wonderful Incarnation, his deity cannot be thought of without his humanity, nor his humanity without his deity." It does not seem to permit one to say that He is not a human person, and especially when we run across this:
"And we recognize that each one (of the two natures) of the one and the same incarnated, that is, humanated (humanati) Word of God is in him unconfusedly, inseparably and unchangeably, intelligence alone discerning a unity, to avoid the error of confusion." And again, the repeated references that the divine is not in opposition to the human in the single person of Christ, again, excluding the possibility of the phrase "not human" with regard to His personhood, as He truly became man completely, wholly and fully without diminishment or change to His divine nature.

The beauty of the Theotokos is that she gave birth to God the Word made man, or as St. Agatho and the 6th council said, the "humanated Word of God."

Anyway, I see a danger here in contradicting some basic precepts of faith, such as those laid down by the doctrinal chapters of the 5th Ecumenical Council:

II.

If anyone shall not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, the one from all eternity of the Father, without time and without body; the other in these last days, coming down from heaven and being made flesh of the holy and glorious Mary, Mother of God and always a virgin, and born of her: let him be anathema.


III.

IF anyone shall say that the wonder-working Word of God is one [Person] and the Christ that suffered another; or shall say that God the Word was with the woman-born Christ, or was in him as one person in another, but that he was not one and the same our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, incarnate and made man, and that his miracles and the sufferings which of his own will he endured in the flesh were not of the same [Person]: let him be anathema.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

Thank you Father L. While I do not pretend to understand all, or agree with all, you did express what I was hoping to receive from AHJE!
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:24 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
Alex,

I assume that you know that there is a debate over the statement that Jesus is "not a human person." Of course, the statement that Christ is a divine person is not problematic. Jesus Christ is a divine person. There is no doubt of this. However, to add that He is "not a human person" is problematic, as the human nature was assumed fully enhypostatically.
Hi Linsinbigler,

Blessed Christmas

I am surprised that you took issue with the OP.

This is Orthodox Catholic Teaching. Jesus is not a human person. Yes His Divine Nature was truly united to His Human Nature from the Incarnation. But this never made Jesus a human person.

In Christ, ... there is ONE Person (the Son).

In Christ, ... there are two Natures (Divine and Human).

The Son is the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. He was never a human person. He is Eternal and Divine as Person.


Quote:
For example, the statement that His personhood is not human is problematic when looking at St. Agatho and the 6th Ecumenical Council:

"because the same Lord Jesus Christ Himself is both perfect God and perfect man, of two and in two natures: and after his wonderful Incarnation, his deity cannot be thought of without his humanity, nor his humanity without his deity."
Yes two natures ... it does not mention personhood.

Quote:
It does not seem to permit one to say that He is not a human person, and especially when we run across this:
These are your words, correct?

Quote:
"And we recognize that each one (of the two natures) of the one and the same incarnated, that is, humanated (humanati) Word of God is in him unconfusedly, inseparably and unchangeably, intelligence alone discerning a unity, to avoid the error of confusion."
Again ... this is a reference to natures not personhood. Surely the two natures are united in a manner mysterious in the Hypostatic Union. And I affirm this as well. But still there is only One Person, a Divine Person (God The Son).

Quote:
And again, the repeated references that the divine is not in opposition to the human in the single person of Christ, again, excluding the possibility of the phrase "not human" with regard to His personhood, as He truly became man completely, wholly and fully without diminishment or change to His divine nature.
But I can maintain that there is no opposition to the Divine and Human Natures in Christ while maintaining what the Church teaches: that Jesus is One Divine Person. This is why Jesus said, "Who do you say that I am?" and that flesh and blood cannot reveal this to you ... (for His Person is Divine) thus you need Divine Revelation to know WHO He is as Person: The Son of the Living God.




Quote:
The beauty of the Theotokos is that she gave birth to God the Word made man, or as St. Agatho and the 6th council said, the "humanated Word of God."

Anyway, I see a danger here in contradicting some basic precepts of faith, such as those laid down by the doctrinal chapters of the 5th Ecumenical Council:

II.

If anyone shall not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, the one from all eternity of the Father, without time and without body; the other in these last days, coming down from heaven and being made flesh of the holy and glorious Mary, Mother of God and always a virgin, and born of her: let him be anathema.
This does not deny the One Divine Personhood of Christ. It speaks of the Two Distinct Natures.


Quote:
III.

IF anyone shall say that the wonder-working Word of God is one [Person] and the Christ that suffered another; or shall say that God the Word was with the woman-born Christ, or was in him as one person in another, but that he was not one and the same our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, incarnate and made man, and that his miracles and the sufferings which of his own will he endured in the flesh were not of the same [Person]: let him be anathema.
This also does not deny that the Subject and Personhood of Jesus is ONE. In fact, it affirms what I wrote in the OP.




Peace be with you.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Mary was and is and will be the Mother of: the PERSON of Jesus Christ---Who is GO

This is another Mystery like the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

We believe that God is Three Persons in ONE NATURE or SUBSTANCE.

There are not 3 Substances, but 1 Divine Substance.

Now, ... in Christ there are 2 Natures (Divine and Human), ... but 1 Person (God the Son).
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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