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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > A heart felt plea to Catholics

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  #1  
Old 11-20-2012, 01:32 PM
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Default A heart felt plea to Catholics

I tried to point out something that is happening in the mass every day to the catholic crusader on another thread and didn't recieve an adequate response. I believe that each and every Catholic needs to approach their priest and make their concerns known. This isn't something that can be pushed aside with a long email or some kind of mysticism, this is very serious.


It's going to be hard to point this out no matter how humble i try and put this. It's not an attack on your Faith!

I went to catholic school for 10 years at our Lady of Refuge in LB. Calif. I served as an alter boy and never had any negative experiences during that time. I have a teacher that has been critical of certain traditions of the catholic church, but never condemed their Faith. I also now work with catholics every day in my walk with the Lord. So believe me i'm pointing this out for your well being, but once i do, you will be responsable to do something about it, this burden will fall on any catholic here that reads this.

What i want to highlight is when the priest is preparing the elements, he lifts the bread and says,"Lord we are not worthy to recieve you, only say the word, and we shall be healed." The entire congregation says this along with the priest.

This statement comes from Mt. 8:8

The work that Christ did on the cross is complete, finished. The priest and the congregation is in effect asking that Christ do something in addition to what he already did on the cross. This is i'm sure unintentional, but this is trampling on the blood of Christ. The one thing we as Christians never even want to come close to doing.

The problem isn't that our Church services aren't done perfectly. The problem is when God points out a unacceptable flaw, what do we do about it. And the fact that this has been done in the Catholic church since the beginning isn't an acceptable response. Any practicing Catholic that reads this is responsible to try and undo this wrong being done in the mass. I really don't think the priest is even aware he is doing this. But one thing for sure, every Sunday when you repeat this statement with your priest, you are accountable for it now.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Unfortunately, I don't understand the point or see the problem... so I'm not sure how to respond.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Unfortunately, I don't understand the point or see the problem... so I'm not sure how to respond.
Hi Mark,

The point is simply a statement made by the priest along with the congregation during the Eucharist.
The statement is made as he holds up the host, "Lord we are not worthy to recieve you, but only say the word and we shall be healed."
When the priest asks the lord to "say something" in order to be healed, it's asking for him to do something in addition to the finished work done on the cross. We are already are healed! By his stripes, we were healed! Christ already completed what we need to be healed. Asking for something in addition is saying what he did wasn't good enough.
The problem is this act performed in the mass is inadvertently trampling on the blood of Christ. I can't explain it any better.

Last edited by watchman1 : 11-20-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:02 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Heb. 10:29

"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was santified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of Grace."
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Unfortunately, I don't understand the point or see the problem... so I'm not sure how to respond.


I tried to explain something to him that is very spiritual and very Christian, and he could not grasp it. He has fallen prey to simplistic heretical arguments against Catholicism. He is an ex-Catholic that never really learned his faith. Here is how it went:


Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
I went to catholic school for 10 years at our Lady of Refuge in LB. Calif. I served as an alter boy and never had any negative experiences during that time. I have a teacher that has been critical of certain traditions of the catholic church, but never condemed their Faith. I also now work with catholics every day in my walk with the Lord. So believe me i'm pointing this out for your well being, but once i do, you will be responsable to do something about it, this burden will fall on any catholic here that reads this.
Yes, I saw the website: Our Lady of Refuge Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
What i want to highlight is when the priest is preparing the elements, he lifts the bread and says,"Lord we are not worthy to recieve you, only say the word, and we shall be healed."
Yes, that is taken from the Bible, Matthew 8:8: "The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
The work that Christ did on the cross is complete, finished. The priest is in effect asking that Christ do something in addition to what he already did on the cross. This is, i'm sure unintentionaly, trampling on the blood of Christ. Never the less, God pointed this out to me while i was supporting my wife and kids at a mass. This info. is now in your hands and your responability.
The problem with going to Catholic school is that you receive a young person's education. That is well and good for a young person, but you are addressing an issue now that Catholic high school is not equiped to address.

First understand: God exists outside of time: There is no past or future for God. He is in the eternal "Now". So Christ's sacrafice on the cross, which for us happened 2000 years ago, is always & ever present before God. The beauty of the Mass is that, in a mystical way, God makes present before us what is always present before him: The once-for-all sacrafice on Calvary. So when the priest transforms the bread and the wine into the body & blood of Christ, we are present at Calvary, which is why the Mass is referred to as the "sacrafice of the Mass". So, we do not sacrifiice Christ again and again as some people wrongly think, rather the once-for-all sacrafice of Christ is RE-presented before us in time.

Now here is an even more beautiful thing: The bread and wine represent our work, the fruit of the vine and the work of human hands. When that bread and wine are transformed, our work - OUR sacrafices - are joined with the sacrafice of Christ and offered back to the Father. It is mystical and it is amazing. It is the beauty, and the awe, of the Mass

Yes, the work that Christ did on the cross is complete, finished. And by God's grace, we are transformed out of time and made present at that event every Sunday.

I suggest you read a book called "The Lamb's Supper" by Dr. Scott Hahn. You will find it quite illuminating


Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Don't tell me where it comes from in scripture, i already know. It doesn't belong in the communion.
Sorry, but you simply are incorrect.

In the 2nd Century, we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Mass. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did: You might be struck by this 2nd century account:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.



Amazing, isn't it! I could go back 1900 years and feel right at home in that celebration..


Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
I'll accept your reply but will not debate this.
A wise choice on your part.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Heb. 10:29

"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was santified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of Grace."
When you first asked me a question, you said you wanted to ask me respectfully, and I answered you respectfully. Now you twist God's word to say we will be punished and that we have "trampled the Son of God underfoot". This is a typical tactic of simple-minded people like you. You put forth a weak argument, and when it is refuted you proceed to use the Bible as if it were a hammer to bludgeon all who disagree with you.

Why did you not respond to me in the thread? Why start a new thread to avoid an argument that you will lose? And why did you lie when you said: "I'll accept your reply but will not debate this.". Right; you didn't debate it, you started a new thread to obfuscate the issue.

You need to grow up and learn how to engage people thoughtfully and like an adult.
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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 11-20-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

This understanding was given to me while in mass, supporting my wife and children. I'm not attacking the Catholic Faith! My walk with Christ started over 50 years ago in Catholic school, i wouldn't change a thing. When my wife and kids said they wanted to attend the catholic mass, i was with them 100%.
I know there will be some that need to kill the messenger, but i also know there are some that understand what i'm saying and can't wait to speak with their priest about this.
To those God be with you, and don't settle for any answer less than what the blood of Christ deserves.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Heb. 10:29

"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was santified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of Grace."
That is not trampling the Blood of Christ. Not at all.. We live in imperfect bodies. We need to be healed. I repented when I was saved and received salvation but I still repent when I have sinned in my heart therefore I did not repent once and for all. Do you see what I mean?

I continuously go to the foot of the cross with many things and daily we are given our "daily bread" therefore it is a process as we put the flesh to death, stay in a state of grace by confession of our sins and renewing our minds through the Holy Spirit.


Frankly, UI believe one of satan's greatest weapons against Christians is to put us under condemnation and destroy our joy in the Lord.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Hi Maizie,

I agree with your post, but Heb. 10:29 is not the problem. The problem is when the priest and the congregation ask Christ to,"only say the word" and we shall be healed. He's not just repenting or asking for healing which i agree is a continous process. He's asking Christ to do something in addition to Christs finished work on the cross. And that is a major problem.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: A heart felt plea to Catholics

Dear watchman1,

Peace be with you,

I can assure you that noone is trampling anything in the Holy Mass.

First, ... the Mass IS the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus made present to us in the here and now.

Second, ... the fruits of that Sacrifice are applied to us in the Mass. The Effects of Jesus shed blood and His stripes are being applied to us IN the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Third, ... we daily commit at least venial sins and so we daily need the Medicine of Immortality which is Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

This makes that prayer for healing an ACT OF FAITH in the Real Presence of Jesus and His Word and His Inconceivable Power to heal us and make us whole.


God love you.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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