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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Have you ever thought about this?

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  #1  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:35 AM
watchman1's Avatar
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Default Have you ever thought about this?

When i look back at the earliest Christians, i wonder how they Faithed in Christ without the NT as we know it today.

First,
The people that wrote the epistles of the NT wern't aware at the time that their lives were going to be in what we call the Bible today. My guess is that the earliest Christians were looking at the OT. writtings for strength just like we look at the NT. today. So are we unknowingly like the early Christians living a newer testament as we focus on the NT?

Second,
You've heard it said many times, "Christ is formed in your heart by Faith", and "Faith comes by hearing, hearing from the word of God."

My question is: How was any Christian able hear the word of God before the Bible began to be circulated in the 1500's. Imagine how it would be without a NT. to look into whenever you felt like it.
Now the word of God isn't just the written word but Christ himself is also the word of God in carnate. So how did these early Christians access the word of God, thus producing the Faith that forms Christ in our hearts?

I believe the answer to this question has been lost over the years and needs to be rediscovered.

jay
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Romans 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Acts 2:41

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.



One of the big problems with the preaching and teaching of recent years has been the lack of the Word being read and taught. Instead we have clever stories, antedotes and so forth but not the "word".
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maizie View Post
Romans 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Acts 2:41

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.



One of the big problems with the preaching and teaching of recent years has been the lack of the Word being read and taught. Instead we have clever stories, antedotes and so forth but not the "word".
Hi Maizie,

I agree with your post, but i was focusing on the people of that time that had no exposier to the message.

Example: Christs work on the cross paid for every sin, past , present, and future. So, is it possible for the Father to draw a person to Christ without hearing the message? Could some of the people of that era have just offered themselves to God and lived in a state of submission and surrender to Christ without knowing anything about him?
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Hi Maizie,

I agree with your post, but i was focusing on the people of that time that had no exposier to the message.

Example: Christs work on the cross paid for every sin, past , present, and future. So, is it possible for the Father to draw a person to Christ without hearing the message? Could some of the people of that era have just offered themselves to God and lived in a state of submission and surrender to Christ without knowing anything about him?
It seems that your real question is "Can someone serve God without knowing the Lord Jesus Christ" and His gospel"?

Jesus Christ answered this, I believe in Luke 4:25-27.
Excuse this realy poor expression for so worthy a subject but God is attracked to faith like a moth is to light.
This is seen in the times when the Lord marveled at the Gentiles who exhibited amazing faith in Him when He was ministering to those to whom He was sent.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maizie View Post
It seems that your real question is "Can someone serve God without knowing the Lord Jesus Christ" and His gospel"?

Jesus Christ answered this, I believe in Luke 4:25-27.
Excuse this realy poor expression for so worthy a subject but God is attracked to faith like a moth is to light.
This is seen in the times when the Lord marveled at the Gentiles who exhibited amazing faith in Him when He was ministering to those to whom He was sent.
Ya Maizie, This subject isn't the worthyest i've ever brought up, but i'll take it one step more before i bail out.

Could there have been called out ones, in the past, that offered their life and will to God through a continual surrender and submission, but didn't know Christ or the Gospel. Being that there is only one God, would God then see that as an act of Faith and start to do a work in them, bringing them to completion.

I'm reading between the lines, but sounds like your understanding is one has to know Christ through the Gospel to be Sealed, no exceptions.

jay
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
When i look back at the earliest Christians, i wonder how they Faithed in Christ without the NT as we know it today.

First,
The people that wrote the epistles of the NT wern't aware at the time that their lives were going to be in what we call the Bible today. My guess is that the earliest Christians were looking at the OT. writtings for strength just like we look at the NT. today. So are we unknowingly like the early Christians living a newer testament as we focus on the NT?

Second,
You've heard it said many times, "Christ is formed in your heart by Faith", and "Faith comes by hearing, hearing from the word of God."

My question is: How was any Christian able hear the word of God before the Bible began to be circulated in the 1500's. Imagine how it would be without a NT. to look into whenever you felt like it.
Now the word of God isn't just the written word but Christ himself is also the word of God in carnate. So how did these early Christians access the word of God, thus producing the Faith that forms Christ in our hearts?

I believe the answer to this question has been lost over the years and needs to be rediscovered.

jay
By fellowship initially with those who had first hand experience with Christ then from those who went out to testify to all nations.
There were written accounts and letters but they have deteriorated over time and now non existent.
Christ and the Apostles often pointed to Old Testament scripture so yes I expect writings were used.

Believers really wanted to care and share but pressures of society restrict that element of fellowship in this day and age.
There is still a vast amount of charity offered within those restrictions by believers and institutions within belief.

You sound like you almost wish to start a new revival and God knows there have been a lot of those.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Ya Maizie, This subject isn't the worthyest i've ever brought up, but i'll take it one step more before i bail out.

Could there have been called out ones, in the past, that offered their life and will to God through a continual surrender and submission, but didn't know Christ or the Gospel. Being that there is only one God, would God then see that as an act of Faith and start to do a work in them, bringing them to completion.

I'm reading between the lines, but sounds like your understanding is one has to know Christ through the Gospel to be Sealed, no exceptions.

jay
The people of the Old Testament did not know Jesus Christ because they died before Christ came incarnated as a man. So, after Christ died, He went to the depths of Sheol (the land of the dead located under the earth) to preach the gospel there so that even those who died in the past can be redeemed. Even those who died in the past will know the name of Jesus Christ because Scripture says even those "underneath the earth" will bend their knees and worship His name.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Phl. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

JON

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Mat. 11:27
no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What these three verses are saying, are that you cannot come to Jesus unless God Draws you to do so and that no man can know the Father (GOD) unless He is revealed to you by Jesus.

So the answer to your question is a NO, you cannot come to the knowledge of God or Christ unless you have been Drawn by God.

Before the Bible was available to mankind, the only way to receive Salvation was by Preaching,
When the verse says "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." the word FAITH is synonymous with SALVATION, the following verses show, everything in context.

Rom 10:13,18
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

In other words, you cannot come to God, Jesus and live a Christian life until you have become a Christian, it is not within your power to come to God, Jesus on your own, before you have been drawn by God to receive the gift of Salvation through Christ, (Gods' Grace).

Where have you heard this statement, where is it found in the Bible?
"Christ is formed in your heart by Faith",

The closest I can come is this verse.
Gal. 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

It sounds like you are trying to make sense out of what you are reading, but just because the word Faith has been used, does not mean the verses are speaking about the same thing,
My examples are the Gal 4:19 verse above, which speaks of having faith (belief) formed and the Rom. 10:17 verse which speaks about Faith as Salvation.


JIM
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2012, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Hi lookinforacity,
You asked,

Where have you heard this statement, where is it found in the Bible?
"Christ is formed in your heart by Faith",

The statement came from a teaching on Heb.11:7,
"By his Faith he condemed the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by Faith."
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Have you ever thought about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
When i look back at the earliest Christians, i wonder how they Faithed in Christ without the NT as we know it today.

First,
The people that wrote the epistles of the NT wern't aware at the time that their lives were going to be in what we call the Bible today. My guess is that the earliest Christians were looking at the OT. writtings for strength just like we look at the NT. today. So are we unknowingly like the early Christians living a newer testament as we focus on the NT?

Second,
You've heard it said many times, "Christ is formed in your heart by Faith", and "Faith comes by hearing, hearing from the word of God."

My question is: How was any Christian able hear the word of God before the Bible began to be circulated in the 1500's. Imagine how it would be without a NT. to look into whenever you felt like it.
Now the word of God isn't just the written word but Christ himself is also the word of God in carnate. So how did these early Christians access the word of God, thus producing the Faith that forms Christ in our hearts?

I believe the answer to this question has been lost over the years and needs to be rediscovered.

jay
Hi Jay. It has not been lost, it is just something not well publicised in certain Protestant circles. Read Justin Martyr (150 AD). Every Church had handwritten copies of the New Testament (he calls them "memoirs of the Apostles") which were read every Sunday in liturgy (i.e. the eucharistic service). Notice St. Paul does not say "faith cometh by reading" but rather "by hearing," because Scripture was read and heard liturgically every week.
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