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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Eph. 4:11,13

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  #1  
Old 11-14-2012, 02:52 PM
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Default Eph. 4:11,13



Eph. 4:11,13 reads,
And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come to the unity of the Faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Also, 1Cor.11:1 reads,
Follow me (Paul) as i follow Christ.

There are two kinds of saints in Christ. There are those who are gifted ministers, Pastors, teachers, etc. that are responsible for perfecting saints. And there are those who are being perfected by those gifted ministers. This process is extremly important to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, for unity!

The reason i'm highlighting these scriptures is because i recently joined a christian discusssion group and had a real bad experience. I was relentlessly attacked along with my instructor. While this was happening i noticed something very interesting. All the people that were attacking me didn't have one of these gifted ministers. They emphatically stated that they were taught directly by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not going to follow any human being. Well, thats just not Gods way according to Eph. 4:11,13.

My point to this thread is simple. It would be a great service to me to know how people in this group feel about this truth. Are you being perfected by a gifted minister or are you a gifted minister perfecting saints. Or, are you one who believes we don't need a gifted teacher, only the Holy Spirit.

Please respond so i get to know everyone better.

thanks
jay
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  #2  
Old 11-14-2012, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post

Eph. 4:11,13 reads,
And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come to the unity of the Faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
The purpose of those particular ministers (5) is to bring people to the point where they no longer need them.

Quote:
Also, 1Cor.11:1 reads,
Follow me (Paul) as i follow Christ.
Meaning that we are to follower a minister sent by God on any pathway that corresponds to the pathway of Jesus. If the minister misses the pathway of Jesus, to the extent that he misses, we are not obligated to follower him.

Quote:
There are two kinds of saints in Christ. There are those who are gifted ministers, Pastors, teachers, etc. that are responsible for perfecting saints. And there are those who are being perfected by those gifted ministers. This process is extremly important to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, for unity!
Very likely some people fitting into the first group of your definition will also fit into the second. Even a teacher can learn. Even a learner can teach.

Quote:
The reason i'm highlighting these scriptures is because i recently joined a christian discusssion group and had a real bad experience. I was relentlessly attacked along with my instructor. While this was happening i noticed something very interesting. All the people that were attacking me didn't have one of these gifted ministers. They emphatically stated that they were taught directly by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not going to follow any human being. Well, thats just not Gods way according to Eph. 4:11,13.
Have there not been some people who had none of those ministers teaching them and yet they learned? For example: Who was Abraham's teacher, or does him being of the Old Testament (OT) make a difference?

Quote:
My point to this thread is simple. It would be a great service to me to know how people in this group feel about this truth. Are you being perfected by a gifted minister or are you a gifted minister perfecting saints. Or, are you one who believes we don't need a gifted teacher, only the Holy Spirit.
We definitely need the ministry, but sometimes our teacher is not always a teacher. For example, Balaam's donkey was a teacher in one instance when he talked as a man speaks, but I doubt that he taught at any other times.
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Hi Amadeus,

Thanks for the reply.


I know the area of gifted ministers is not an absolute, stuff happens. Theres a sinful nature still trying to take over the house. I do think that the gifted ministers spoken of in Eph. are very rare. To many sheep want to be shepards.

I've only known one gifted minister in my 25 years of being in Christ. And i have looked extensivly for others. But with that said, there are things that i question about my instructors application of certain understandings, but it's never a deal breaker.
I would never put god in a box and say we couldn't learn something from somewhere else, or that we could teach something ourselves. But these gifted ministers are responsible for watching over the souls of the saints God gave them to perfect. They will be held accountable.

Amadeus, you didn't say where you are in this equation.

jay
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Hi Amadeus,

Thanks for the reply.


I know the area of gifted ministers is not an absolute, stuff happens. Theres a sinful nature still trying to take over the house. I do think that the gifted ministers spoken of in Eph. are very rare. To many sheep want to be shepards.
This "want to be" attitude is par for the course for the carnal man. Unfortunately, it seems that the land is filled with either ungifted men, who were not called by God at all, or gifted men who have compromised themselves to please others. I have known at least one person who was a good preacher/teacher, but failed miserably as a pastor IMHO. I have only known one definitely "gifted" pastor and that is my present one.

Quote:
I've only known one gifted minister in my 25 years of being in Christ. And i have looked extensivly for others. But with that said, there are things that i question about my instructors application of certain understandings, but it's never a deal breaker.
Well 36 years ago when I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I was too ignorant in the things of God to know many answers. Now I have learned enough to know that sometimes even my questions are the wrong ones. But... I have definitely grown, although at least a couple of the members on this forum might doubt it.

Quote:
I would never put god in a box and say we couldn't learn something from somewhere else, or that we could teach something ourselves. But these gifted ministers are responsible for watching over the souls of the saints God gave them to perfect. They will be held accountable.
Yes, they are accountable, but the same within the same verses that make them accountable are also words which make those, who do not hold specific ministerial positions, accountable as well.

Quote:
Amadeus, you didn't say where you are in this equation.
I am eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Jesus daily, but too often I eat and drink too much junk as well.

Sometimes, that which is alive in me, overflows as I share what I have from God with others who are hungry and thirsty.

I hold no formal ministerial position, but God has some little jobs for me now and then. I try to always be listening for God's voice, so that makes me what? I also try to obey when He wants me minister to others, so what does that make me?
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  #5  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post

Eph. 4:11,13 reads,
And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come to the unity of the Faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Also, 1Cor.11:1 reads,
Follow me (Paul) as i follow Christ.

There are two kinds of saints in Christ. There are those who are gifted ministers, Pastors, teachers, etc. that are responsible for perfecting saints. And there are those who are being perfected by those gifted ministers. This process is extremly important to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, for unity!

The reason i'm highlighting these scriptures is because i recently joined a christian discusssion group and had a real bad experience. I was relentlessly attacked along with my instructor. While this was happening i noticed something very interesting. All the people that were attacking me didn't have one of these gifted ministers. They emphatically stated that they were taught directly by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not going to follow any human being. Well, thats just not Gods way according to Eph. 4:11,13.

My point to this thread is simple. It would be a great service to me to know how people in this group feel about this truth. Are you being perfected by a gifted minister or are you a gifted minister perfecting saints. Or, are you one who believes we don't need a gifted teacher, only the Holy Spirit.

Please respond so i get to know everyone better.

thanks
jay
It isn't too difficult to see the Spirit in every believer if you look for that.
Usually shown in acknowledgment of Christ.
Honestly I have seen and heard the Spirit in every minister I have come across.
Whenever the Word is read and discussed from.
But then again I see the Spirit where the Spirit wouldn't be expected to be.
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  #6  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post

Eph. 4:11,13 reads,
And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come to the unity of the Faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Also, 1Cor.11:1 reads,
Follow me (Paul) as i follow Christ.

There are two kinds of saints in Christ. There are those who are gifted ministers, Pastors, teachers, etc. that are responsible for perfecting saints. And there are those who are being perfected by those gifted ministers. This process is extremly important to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, for unity!

The reason i'm highlighting these scriptures is because i recently joined a christian discusssion group and had a real bad experience. I was relentlessly attacked along with my instructor. While this was happening i noticed something very interesting. All the people that were attacking me didn't have one of these gifted ministers. They emphatically stated that they were taught directly by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not going to follow any human being. Well, thats just not Gods way according to Eph. 4:11,13.

My point to this thread is simple. It would be a great service to me to know how people in this group feel about this truth. Are you being perfected by a gifted minister or are you a gifted minister perfecting saints. Or, are you one who believes we don't need a gifted teacher, only the Holy Spirit.

Please respond so i get to know everyone better.

thanks
jay
In what way were you being attacked?
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2012, 01:51 PM
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Exclamation Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
In what way were you being attacked?
Hi cinderAsh,
The attack was ultimatly about the salvation process. But the battle was over one EXTREMLY important word. It's the word believe. The words believe, believer, and believing are used 248 times in the Gospels alone. The problem, is the word believe is not the word used in the origonal Greek manuscripts. The word used in the Geek text 248 times is, Pisteuo, it's the verb form of the word Faith. We don't have a word in the English language for the verb form of Faith. If we did it would be, Faither, Faithing, or to Faithe. The exact meaning of this word Pisteuo is, An action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense.

The translators were forced to use a word that didn't fully communicate the exact definition of the origonal text. A word that only represents a part of the true meaning. And that word is "Believe".

The battle i fight is nobody seems to know about this, and when they find out, they reject it because they've built their entire understanding on the fact that all they have to do is "Believe" the good news of the Gospel, and at that instant their sealed with the Holy Spirit never to be taken out of his hands.

The word in the Greek is an action word, its something that the mind and the will have to be engauged in.The word Pisteuo involves Choices and decisions that are made that produce consequences. But at the same time it's not a work to be added to the finished gift of Grace.

The understanding of the ones who attacked me personally, my understanding, and my teacher, stand on this fact. That salvation is by Grace through Faith, The Faith of Christ, not our Faithing. Salvation is by Grace through Faith means, Salvation is by the finished work of Christ done on the cross, through Faith which is our response to that unmerited gift. Not a reponse of works that need to be added to Grace, but a surrender and submission to that gift of Grace. And the real completion of the word Pisteuo is when we are putting all our wieght on the staff called trust. Thats the pictorial meaning of this word Pisteuo, to put all your weight on a staff. The word BELIEVE is a mistranslation, and people are building there entire understanding on this mistranslation.

Here are a few examples of the difference between the two words.

1) MK.1:15, English, "Repent and (BELIEVE) in the Gospel.
Greek, "Repent and (be completly committed) to the Gospel"

2) Mk.!6:16, English, "He who (BELIEVES) and is baptized will be saved."
Greek, "He who (committs his life unto me) and is baptized will be saved."

3)MK. 16:17, English, "And these signs will follow those who (BELIEVE).
Greek, "And these signs will follow those who (are committed unto me.")

4) Jn. 3:16, English, " that whoever (BELIEVES) in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Greek, "that whoever (committs their life to him) should not perish but have everlasting life.

There are 244 more foundational scriptures that could be added to this list. The point is that the Greek language is specific in the meanings of their words. And that the word Believe is a kind of stumbling block, and i'm just saying, WATCH OUT!

The greek text supports the best discription of a Christian, Deny self, take up your cross, and follow me. A continual surrender and submission to our Lord Jesus Christ!

In conclusion, They wouldn't admitt that the mistranslation exists. They stand on the definition of Pisteuo as BELIEVE because any conection to pisteuo in English they find will always go right back to the word BELIEVE because again ,we have no word in English for pisteuo.

The understanding of this word pisteuo and how it was mistranslated into English is vital to teaching a correct knowledge of the perfect man, Our Lord Jesus Christ. CHRIST IS FORMED IN OUR HEARTS BY FAITH!

jay
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Hi Amadeus,

Thanks for the reply.


I know the area of gifted ministers is not an absolute, stuff happens. Theres a sinful nature still trying to take over the house. I do think that the gifted ministers spoken of in Eph. are very rare. To many sheep want to be shepards.

I've only known one gifted minister in my 25 years of being in Christ. And i have looked extensivly for others. But with that said, there are things that i question about my instructors application of certain understandings, but it's never a deal breaker.
I would never put god in a box and say we couldn't learn something from somewhere else, or that we could teach something ourselves. But these gifted ministers are responsible for watching over the souls of the saints God gave them to perfect. They will be held accountable.

Amadeus, you didn't say where you are in this equation.

jay
So, you are qualified to pick your own "gifted minister"? Where does this qualification come from?
Not an attack, mind you. Just curious.
Wouldn't "faithfulness" be the verb form of faith? And really, technically, faith should be a verb, like love. If its an adjective, its not being done right.
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Matthew 23:12:
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Last edited by thelowlyfisherman : 11-15-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelowlyfisherman View Post
So, you are qualified to pick your own "gifted minister"? Where does this qualification come from?
Not an attack, mind you. Just curious.
Wouldn't "faithfulness" be the verb form of faith? And really, technically, faith should be a verb, like love. If its an adjective, its not being done right.
Hi lowlyfisherman,

I would have to say no, that we arn't qualified to choose a gifted minister.
In my personal experience, i had no clue that the born experience was even happening to me until Christ revealed himself through a gifted minister. That same teacher is still my instructor today. I would say Jesus assigned him to me.

The word "Faithfulness" is only used 1 time in the Nt. it's 3559 in the strongs and means, To render sure. The translators chose believe to use in the English NT for the verb form of Faith. It takes 3 english words to correctly define the word Pisteuo. It's mind boggling how the English language can alter the meaning of scripture from the greek texts.

jay
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Eph. 4:11,13

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchman1 View Post
Hi lowlyfisherman,

I would have to say no, that we arn't qualified to choose a gifted minister.
In my personal experience, i had no clue that the born experience was even happening to me until Christ revealed himself through a gifted minister. That same teacher is still my instructor today. I would say Jesus assigned him to me.

The word "Faithfulness" is only used 1 time in the Nt. it's 3559 in the strongs and means, To render sure. The translators chose believe to use in the English NT for the verb form of Faith. It takes 3 english words to correctly define the word Pisteuo. It's mind boggling how the English language can alter the meaning of scripture from the greek texts.

jay
He is a Catholic Priest? I guess I am trying to figure out how you know he is a gifted minister? Did he tell you he was gifted? Did the Church tell you? Did the Holy Spirit tell you?
__________________
Matthew 23:12:
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
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