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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

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Old 10-28-2012, 08:07 PM
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Question Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

It is true that the faithful need not read the whole Bible in order to be saved. Nor do they need to know everything about the Word of God in order to enter Heaven. But I believe that a Christian must come to accept by faith the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity in order to be saved. For this is the central Mystery of our Faith as believers in Jesus Christ.

There are many sincere people who seek to follow Jesus who do deny this as Divinely Revealed and they may use the Holy Bible to support their position. But is this an excuse for them? Given that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere taught by Christ nor the Scriptures themselves? To deny the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity out of contempt for the Holy Catholic Church or out of mistrust against the Teaching Authority of the Church will not suffice on Judgement Day, ... as a matter of fact it may even add to their sin of heresy.

Those who read the Holy Bible and seek Jesus have yet to accept the Word of God if they, up to this point, deny the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

God is ONE in Substance and THREE in Persons.


Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. AMEN.



A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 04-02-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

To make a point of faith a matter of ultimate salvation means to be deciding for other persons what needs to be in their heart.

I doubt that anyone who has argued in favor of the trinity is able to prove satisfactorily to another person, who does not already endorse that doctrine, that there is a trinity.

If there is a trinity, unless God gives an individual a revelation to that effect, he cannot know. He can only believe it is so, or believe that it is not so, or stand in some place of doubt in between.

Are we not as the title of the forum suggests, to be true to ourselves? Should we embrace without hesitation a doctrine which our heart says is in error, or which even might be in error? Our heart may be wrong, but without God giving the increase from faith to knowledge on this point to those, who doubt the trinity or lean away from such a belief, what else would you expect them to do?

You certainly would not make a final commitment yourself based on someone else's faith, so why you expect someone else to make a final commitment based on your faith.

Why is it necessary to decide this about others? Shouldn't it ultimately be left to them and God, unless they specifically ask for assistance or information from you or others?
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

ALEX

Three verses form the criteria of Salvation.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Things like The Trinity, Sola Scriptura, Free Will are nowhere taught by Christ nor the Scriptures they all fall under the category of Doctrine. Just because someone does not believe or follow the teachings of the Catholic Church does not mean they will be going to Hell.

Be Blessed
JIM
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
It is true that the faithful need not read the whole Bible in order to be saved. Nor do they need to know everything about the Word of God in order to enter Heaven. But I believe that a Christian must come to accept by faith the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity in order to be saved. For this is the central Mystery of our Faith as believers in Jesus Christ.

There are many sincere people who seek to follow Jesus who do deny this as Divinely Revealed and they may use the Holy Bible to support their position. But is this an excuse for them? Given that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere taught by Christ nor the Scriptures themselves? To deny the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity out of contempt for the Holy Catholic Church or out of mistrust against the Teaching Authority of the Church will not suffice on Judgement Day, ... as a matter of fact it may even add to their sin of heresy.

Those who read the Holy Bible and seek Jesus have yet to accept the Word of God if they, up to this point, deny the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

God is ONE in Substance and THREE in Persons.


Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. AMEN.



A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
The New Testament clearly teach that there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is where I believe the doctrine of Trinity came from. Some people I know who do not believe in the Trinity doctrine believe that Trinity is wrong and even label it as false and some call it of the devil.

I would consider them Christian in some cases but for cases who non Trinitarian consider me wrong and deceived for being a Trinitarian then they are forcing me to consider them as non Christian.

ped
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
To make a point of faith a matter of ultimate salvation means to be deciding for other persons what needs to be in their heart........
Technically speaking, the belief in the Trinity is one of the common fundamentals among all branches of Christianity. So, technically, rejecting that belief does place one outside the confines how what Christianity defines itself to be.

Now, Ammadeus is correct regarding salvation. Unfortunately, the point Ammadeus makes can apply to anybody, Christian or not. (I am sure you guys remember my famous hypothetical about the little Muslim boy who dies at age 5.)

Christiandom has the right to define itself and its beliefs. And since belief in the Trinity is one of those shared common fundamentals among Christians, then..... ....well, there you go. That does not mean that NOT believing in the Trinity automatically excludes you from salvation though.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:33 AM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Technically speaking, the belief in the Trinity is one of the common fundamentals among all branches of Christianity. So, technically, rejecting that belief does place one outside the confines how what Christianity defines itself to be.

Now, Ammadeus is correct regarding salvation. Unfortunately, the point Ammadeus makes can apply to anybody, Christian or not. (I am sure you guys remember my famous hypothetical about the little Muslim boy who dies at age 5.)

Christiandom has the right to define itself and its beliefs. And since belief in the Trinity is one of those shared common fundamentals among Christians, then..... ....well, there you go. That does not mean that NOT believing in the Trinity automatically excludes you from salvation though.
I agree with this.

I'd also add that the reason someone doesn't believe in the Trinity is a factor to consider. Someone may have experienced God the Father's love in Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, but may not have yet come to an understanding of the Three-In-One-ness of God. Or they may have been fed erroneous teaching that they haven't yet realised is false. In either of those situations, there is a big difference between that, and someone who denies the Trinity out of hatred for the Church.

There are really 2 questions here, whether we should call someone who denies the Trinity a Christian, and whether they can be saved. On the former, I'd head towards saying no, though it depends on the reasons; on the latter, God's mercy is so immense that I believe they can be saved, despite their error, but whether or not they will be saved, I cannot say.

Last edited by eddybear : 10-30-2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:46 AM
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Lightbulb Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Hi Amadeus,

YOU WROTE:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
To make a point of faith a matter of ultimate salvation means to be deciding for other persons what needs to be in their heart.
I am not deciding for them what needs to be in their heart. But if they want to be called "Christian" they need to abandon their denial of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. God reveals the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity both in Sacred Writing and Divine Tradition which is faithfully interpreted by the Teaching Authority of the Church which Jesus founded. It is therefore a matter of salvation.

I know that many want to walk blissfully ignorant of the Word of God in Divine Tradition but it doesn't make it dissappear on that account. They might ignore it as the Word of God, but it still remains the Word of God.
And God demands that we revere it as we ought to revere the Scriptures.

Quote:
I doubt that anyone who has argued in favor of the trinity is able to prove satisfactorily to another person, who does not already endorse that doctrine, that there is a trinity.
No, ... one cannot prove the things of Faith (at least not by pure reason), ... they must be revealed in Divine Revelation, ... PUBLIC Divine Revelation.

Quote:
If there is a trinity, unless God gives an individual a revelation to that effect, he cannot know. He can only believe it is so, or believe that it is not so, or stand in some place of doubt in between.
As I said, God has revealed that there is a Trinity in Sacred Writing, Divine Tradition and by the Teaching Authority of the Church. I guess this goes to show that God never meant to give us only the Scriptures, but also His Church for certainty in the Truths of the Faith. There is no reason why a Christian should be in doubt as to the God that we worship and adore. As Jesus said in St. John 4 ... WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP/ADORE.

Quote:
Are we not as the title of the forum suggests, to be true to ourselves? Should we embrace without hesitation a doctrine which our heart says is in error, or which even might be in error? Our heart may be wrong, but without God giving the increase from faith to knowledge on this point to those, who doubt the trinity or lean away from such a belief, what else would you expect them to do?
To stop calling themselves Christian and to stop claiming that they have received the Word of God. They may continue to practice their own religion if that is what they believe God wants them to do.

Just like Jesus told the Samaritan woman, ... I say to them ... YOU KNOW NOT WHAT YOU WORSHIP/ADORE. But WE (the People of God) do know what we worship/adore.

And those who belong to God will hear our testimony. (According to 1 St. John 4:6)

Quote:
You certainly would not make a final commitment yourself based on someone else's faith, so why you expect someone else to make a final commitment based on your faith.
I would seek the fullness of Divine Revelation, ... just as those sought to hear Jesus after listening to the Samaritan woman. But they did believe the Samaritan woman also.

Quote:
Why is it necessary to decide this about others? Shouldn't it ultimately be left to them and God, unless they specifically ask for assistance or information from you or others?[/font][/size]
I am not saying that they are going to Hell. That is not for me to decide. Only God can Judge that. I just say that those who deny the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity have not really received the Word of God and they are not yet Christians. I think I'll call them appropriately the "Not-Yet-Christians". For they seek to be Christian but have not received the God of the Christians by faith. (I think that calling them Samaritarians would be a little offensive).

Jesus was very bold with the Samaritan woman and did not sacrifice the Truth in favor of pleasing man. Neither should His People.

God bless you.
__________________
_______________________________


"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 10-30-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
It is true that the faithful need not read the whole Bible in order to be saved. Nor do they need to know everything about the Word of God in order to enter Heaven. But I believe that a Christian must come to accept by faith the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity in order to be saved. For this is the central Mystery of our Faith as believers in Jesus Christ.
What a lot of nonsense... To begin with, the WORD of GOD does not even CONTAIN nor define the premise of the "trinity", nor the term used to describe it.

And you would decide SALVATION for other men (aside from yourself), based upon what YOU BELIEVE? Give me a break! How self-righteous of you.

You herein, begin with a FALSE FOUNDATION, and all your conclusions fall into the PIT of the FALLACY of that UNBIBLICAL FOUNDATION! Wake up sleeper!

Can you answer any of these questions, using the BIBLE?

  • 1. The WORD does not use the term, "TRINITY", ...so how can it be THE deciding factor in the Salvation of ANYONE let alone, EVERYONE?

  • 2. The WORD does not mention the "trinity" or the supposed "mystery" that it is... So how can this "mystery" be considered the central notion of FAITH?

  • 3. That the WORD does not even mention the "trinity", how can you PROVE that it is "undivided" using the WORD? And,

  • 4. If you cannot USE the WORD of GOD to prove this TEACHING (of the "trinity"), then how can it be said the "trinity" is of the WORD?


Time is running out, so it is time to WAKE UP folks, EXAMINE what you BELIEVE, ...and for goodness sakes, SMELL the coffee...


PEACE... ...willieH
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Quote:
Technically speaking, the belief in the Trinity is one of the common fundamentals among all branches of Christianity. So, technically, rejecting that belief does place one outside the confines how what Christianity defines itself to be.
I do not disagree. I do not require that anyone consider me Christian in accord with their definition of the word. I do not like to use the word to define those who are really striving to follow Jesus, because these United States do not appear even on the surface like a place where the majority consists of followers of Jesus. There must be something basic wrong with "Christians" if this country is the result of them being in the majority.

Quote:
Now, Ammadeus is correct regarding salvation. Unfortunately, the point Ammadeus makes can apply to anybody, Christian or not. (I am sure you guys remember my famous hypothetical about the little Muslim boy who dies at age 5.)
I do not recall the details of your Muslim boy, but I agree that what I said could apply to people with no connection with any organized "Christian" group.

Quote:
Christiandom has the right to define itself and its beliefs. And since belief in the Trinity is one of those shared common fundamentals among Christians, then..... ....well, there you go. That does not mean that NOT believing in the Trinity automatically excludes you from salvation though.
Again I agree with you CC. But... as I have already indicated, the word Christian, or the one used here, Christiandom, based on all of the peoples they are used to define are too often used too loosely. This doesn't mean by you, because likely your definition is more precise than the one used to determine that a person is Christian for a poll.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Can those who deny the Trinity TRULY be considered Christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
I am not deciding for them what needs to be in their heart. But if they want to be called "Christian" they need to abandon their denial of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. God reveals the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity both in Sacred Writing and Divine Tradition which is faithfully interpreted by the Teaching Authority of the Church which Jesus founded. It is therefore a matter of salvation.
Does a person want to be called "Christian"? Or does a person really want to be BE like Christ? There really is a difference. You are again saying that the teaching of the RCC is the only truth. Even the official RCC doesn't agree, I believe, with the way you express it.

Quote:
No, ... one cannot prove the things of Faith (at least not by pure reason), ... they must be revealed in Divine Revelation, ... PUBLIC Divine Revelation.
It cannot be proven, as you admit by man's reason, yet you insist that others who are not within your place of faith must accept your place of faith as the correct one based on your say so or on the say so of the RCC authorities. What a harsh requirement to place on someone outside of the RCC. I do not believe that God or His Son did or do the same.

Quote:
As I said, God has revealed that there is a Trinity in Sacred Writing, Divine Tradition and by the Teaching Authority of the Church. I guess this goes to show that God never meant to give us only the Scriptures, but also His Church for certainty in the Truths of the Faith. There is no reason why a Christian should be in doubt as to the God that we worship and adore. As Jesus said in St. John 4 ... WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP/ADORE.
"WE KNOW WHAT" sounds very good, but you have applied as if only those within the RCC know and again that is I believe, contrary to the official position of the RCC. I have no doubt about who it is that I worship and I am certain I am not the only one outside of the formal RCC group who believes that way.

Quote:
To stop calling themselves Christian and to stop claiming that they have received the Word of God. They may continue to practice their own religion if that is what they believe God wants them to do.
So based on your say so we who are not of the formal RCC can worship as we please, but we must not take on the label of Christian and we must deny the Word of God that we have received. Have you discussed this viewpoint with anyone familiar with the official position of the RCC lately?

Quote:
I am not saying that they are going to Hell. That is not for me to decide. Only God can Judge that. I just say that those who deny the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity have not really received the Word of God and they are not yet Christians. I think I'll call them appropriately the "Not-Yet-Christians". For they seek to be Christian but have not received the God of the Christians by faith. (I think that calling them Samaritarians would be a little offensive).

Jesus was very bold with the Samaritan woman and did not sacrifice the Truth in favor of pleasing man. Neither should His People.
And I would call anyone, who follows Jesus in a measure, who is not yet an overcomer, as Jesus was an overcomer, someone who needs to kill all of his beasts and continuing growing toward God. I would rather be an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer than to be eligible, based on your criteria, to bear the label of "Christian".

Give God the glory always!
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