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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

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  #1  
Old 10-25-2012, 03:54 PM
Lookinforacity's Avatar
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Default ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

This verse says Jesus had a Will of His own, as we do also, but He chose not to exercise His Will.
It does not matter what the reason is, as to why He did not exercise it, Jesus had a Free Will

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: (NEVER THE LESS NOT MY WILL), but thine, be done.



Paul expresses two times in this verse, his Will to Preach the Gospel, and then his Will being overridden to Preach the Gospel, but either way, the Gospel would be Preached.

1 Cor. 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Doesn't this verse clearly show, Paul had self determination, eg, the ability to CHOOSE?

But even with these verses, the case for having a Free Will has not been met, it only proves, that within this Physical Fleshly Realm, mankind has the ability to make choices, what color socks to wear, what kind of car to drive, what food to eat tonight.
But it does not in any way shape or form say, mankind has a Free Will to Accept the Gift of Salvation from God or he has the ability to refuse it, it also means Mankind does not have the Free Will to resist sin, that is why we need a Savior, Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

What is the real question behind the "free will" issue"?

Is it to accuse God of having favorites?

Is it to insist God would never send anyone to hell and that everyone will be saved?

Our individual answers are the evidence of what we believe about God and His nature.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

I was one who always believed in "Free will". It is evident that God created us with the ability to make our own choices. Like in Genesis Adam received the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Although God commanded Adam not to eat from it he chose to eat from it anyway. Hence he had a choice.

After reading posts from the other thread and seeing most arguing for free will, Willie insisted that it was false teaching and was no where to be found in the bible. I decided to take it upon myself to find scripture to prove free will but to be honest I have found none.

I think we Christians believe in free will because God allows us to choose for our selves. I'm not so sure that He so much allows us but perhaps He "requires" us to make choices. God commanding Adam not to eat of the tree implied that Adam was "required" to make a choice. Is this free will?

Is free will simply the ability to make choices? I'm not so convinced. the word free seems to throw the whole thing off for me. Is it possible for our will to be free?

After some serous thought and digging trying to find proof of free will I have discovered our will is not free at all. Its ALWAYS a slave to what ever influenced the choices being made. For example lets say I'm deciding whether to go to the store or not. If I choose to go to the store the choice is influenced by something like not having anything for dinner, needing milk, toilet paper, or what ever. That choice is influenced by needing or wanting that item. If I choose not to go to the store that decision is influenced by laziness or some other excuse. The point being we cannot make decisions free of influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
This verse says Jesus had a Will of His own, as we do also, but He chose not to exercise His Will.
It does not matter what the reason is, as to why He did not exercise it, Jesus had a Free Will
Jesus had a will. Does that mean Jesus had a will free from influence? Or if Jesus chose His will over Gods would He be choosing the influence of the flesh over Gods will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: (NEVER THE LESS NOT MY WILL), but thine, be done.
Jesus was choosing Gods will over the will of the flesh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Paul expresses two times in this verse, his Will to Preach the Gospel, and then his Will being overridden to Preach the Gospel, but either way, the Gospel would be Preached.

1 Cor. 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Doesn't this verse clearly show, Paul had self determination, eg, the ability to CHOOSE?
Yes he had the ability or (requirement) to choose but would that choice be without influence from God or the flesh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
But even with these verses, the case for having a Free Will has not been met, it only proves, that within this Physical Fleshly Realm, mankind has the ability to make choices, what color socks to wear, what kind of car to drive, what food to eat tonight.
But it does not in any way shape or form say, mankind has a Free Will to Accept the Gift of Salvation from God or he has the ability to refuse it, it also means Mankind does not have the Free Will to resist sin, that is why we need a Savior, Jesus Christ.
I don't see how any of these verses show the case of being able to choose free from any influence from the flesh or from God.

From my own understanding (and that's not saying much) I have yet to see any concrete evidence of free will, or the ability to make choices of our own will free from influence.

If our choices are of our own will we sin, but if they are the will of God we make choices free from sin yet still influenced by God.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

willieH: Hi Jim...

Cool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
This verse says Jesus had a Will of His own, as we do also, but He chose not to exercise His Will.
It does not matter what the reason is, as to why He did not exercise it, Jesus had a Free Will


Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: (NEVER THE LESS NOT MY WILL), but thine, be done.
The verse does not use the word FREE in conjunction with the "will" of CHRIST... Only that He has a "will"... that He chose NOT to apply His "will", brings into question the USE of Human WILL... for He, being the ONLY Human NOT to exercise the "will", was (not coincidentally), the only SINLESS Human being to ever walk the earth.

He is disassociated with us in that way... Putting away His own SELF-desire, in favor of whatever might be (unbeknownst to Him at the time), of the WILL of YHVH... which is the GOAL of the believer anyway -- Matt 6:10

It also bears mentioning about your quoted verse brother, that JESUS nixed His own "WILL", if it was NOT the WILL of the Father... which, as it "turned out" ...what HE REQUESTED via HIS OWN WILL, ...WAS NOT the Father's WILL! It was the WILL of YHVH, that JESUS ...drink the cup"...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Paul expresses two times in this verse, his Will to Preach the Gospel, and then his Will being overridden to Preach the Gospel, but either way, the Gospel would be Preached.

1 Cor. 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Doesn't this verse clearly show, Paul had self determination, eg, the ability to CHOOSE?
Hey brother Jim, neither in my PM to you, nor in any other place have mentioned that I maintained that "CHOICE" is not exercised by MEN... Not at all! I "choose to do "things daily...

I maintain that CHOICE by MEN, BY NATURE, ...is CONTRARY to the WILL of the FATHER, as this verse displays as did CHRIST's REQUEST also display.

That the GOSPEL would be PREACHED is a GOD "given", whether PAUL did the preaching or not, ...and that he does not in any way substanciate that PAUL's willful CHOICE or preference was "FREE".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
But even with these verses, the case for having a Free Will has not been met, it only proves, that within this Physical Fleshly Realm, mankind has the ability to make choices, what color socks to wear, what kind of car to drive, what food to eat tonight. But it does not in any way shape or form say, mankind has a Free Will to Accept the Gift of Salvation from God or he has the ability to refuse it, it also means Mankind does not have the Free Will to resist sin, that is why we need a Savior, Jesus Christ.
I agree with this for the most part Jim... Because JESUS CHRIST's request was DENIED, and because He qualified that GOD's WILL be done concerning that request is proof enough that the WILL of man does NOT EVER select God's WILL...

I do not see it as a conscious REBELLION either, ...it is the NATURE of MAN as DECLARED by YHVH which CONCLUDES ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

There is PURPOSE in GOD concluding us ALL, and that is that EVIL which HE created -- Isaiah 45:7 -- to be REVEALED, is indeed revealed via the vessel of DISHONOR, found in EACH LUMP of CLAY called "man"... which also shall reveal GOOD, in the vessel of HONOR in each man, when the GLORY of YHVH is seen in us ALL -- Rom 9:21-23



PEACE... ...willieH
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedbyChrist View Post
From my own understanding (and that's not saying much) I have yet to see any concrete evidence of free will, or the ability to make choices of our own will free from influence.

If our choices are of our own will we sin, but if they are the will of God we make choices free from sin yet still influenced by God.
Matthew 12: 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Do we have the choice to love God, hate God or be indifferent?

For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Do we have a choice to decide on this matter and how we express it?
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by willieH View Post
He is disassociated with us in that way... Putting away His own SELF-desire, in favor of whatever might be (unbeknownst to Him at the time), of the WILL of YHVH... which is the GOAL of the believer anyway -- Matt 6:10
A believer has a Goal without any free will?

It is the WILL of God to have everyone a believer and to love him for sure but not everyone will make that choice.

Have you?
By what means did you make that choice?

Quote:
Hey brother Jim, neither in my PM to you, nor in any other place have mentioned that I maintained that "CHOICE" is not exercised by MEN... Not at all! I "choose to do "things daily...
You are not free to do so?

Quote:
I agree with this for the most part Jim... Because JESUS CHRIST's request was DENIED, and because He qualified that GOD's WILL be done concerning that request is proof enough that the WILL of man does NOT EVER select God's WILL...

I do not see it as a conscious REBELLION either, ...it is the NATURE of MAN as DECLARED by YHVH which CONCLUDES ALL in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32
Please explain why it was or wasn't your choice to decide to believe.

Quote:
There is PURPOSE in GOD concluding us ALL, and that is that EVIL which HE created -- Isaiah 45:7 -- to be REVEALED, is indeed revealed via the vessel of DISHONOR, found in EACH LUMP of CLAY called "man"... which also shall reveal GOOD, in the vessel of HONOR in each man, when the GLORY of YHVH is seen in us ALL -- Rom 9:21-23
What if there is none of this GLORY seen within some?
Is it the will of God that there isn't?

You really should read the River Of Fire Rev. Linsinbigler linked.
River of Fire
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

willieH: Hi CA...

You have been taught an flawed message... For the message you teach to others is full of NEGATIVITY (condemnations), ...and IS NOT the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Mark 16:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- which means the "GOOD NEWS of ...PEACE".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Matthew 12: 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
ALL of us in the "day of account" will have words which will be "ACQUITTED" and words which will be "CONDEMNED"... for we are ALL SINNERS -- SAVED by GRACE, ...not by our (mispercieved) "CHOICE" to "LOVE God" -- Eph 2:8-9

In DIVINE JUDGEMENT... CHRIST will be separating ALL placed upon HIS foundation -- 1 Cor 3:11 -- and only WORKS (and WORDS) which were generated by HIM through you, shall survive... ALL things YOU generated, will be BURNED -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- for they are INIQUITY... yet you will be SAVED, even by the FIRE which consumes your INIQUITY. (therefore be CAREFUL what you "teach" others)

Actually the word "condemned" in your quoted verse above, means "JUDGED against" -- Isaiah 26:9 -- when the JUDGMENTS of YHVH are IN the Earth, the Inhabitants thereof shall ...LEARN... RIGHTEOUSNESS.

JESUS was SENT NOT... to "CONDEMN"... but to SAVE the WORLD --- John 3:17



Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Do we have the choice to love God, hate God or be indifferent?

For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Do we have a choice to decide on this matter and how we express it?
NO, ...we do NOT "have" this "CHOICE"!
  • John 6:44 -- No man CAN come to CHRIST ...except... the FATHER draw (drag in Gk), him...
  • 1 Cor 12:2 -- No man CAN call JESUS "Lord", ...except... BY the HOLY SPIRIT
  • Heb 12:2 -- No man CAN have FAITH, except CHRIST ...Author AND Finish that FAITH.
  • 1 John 4:19 -- We LOVE GOD ...ONLY... because HE loved us FIRST



By NATURE and the NATURAL state, we (human beings) seek CORRUPTION, not GOD -- 1 Cor 15:42-54 -- 49 As we have BORNE the IMAGE of the EARTHY (which is CORRUPT)... so shall also bear the IMAGE of the HEAVENLY (which is INCORRUPT)

As we (by nature) bear a WICKED heart, which is DECEITFUL above all things -- Jer 17:9 -- which, of itself, is LOST... until it is SAVED by JESUS CHRIST -- Luke 19:10



PEACE... ...willieH
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maizie View Post
What is the real question behind the "free will" issue"?

Is it to accuse God of having favorites?
God has no "favorites"... to this point (I'm sure there are more) I have found 11 verses that STATE that He is IMPARTIAL -- Prov 28:21 -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- Rom 2:11 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Col 3:25 -- Matt 22:16

We are nothing but re-formed "DIRT CLODS"! Why should He "favor" one dirt clod over another? -- Rom 9:21


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maizie View Post
[1] Is it to insist God would never send anyone to hell and [2] that everyone will be saved?
[1] --- Well, YOU apparently would rather "INSIST" that God would send creatures that HE LOVES -- John 3:16 -- and whom JESUS died for -- Rom 5:6-8 -- to a MOST HORRID, UNJUST, VENGENT, and UNSPEAKABLE, MAN invented place, that for some UNKNOWN reason, YOU think, YOU "deserve" not to go to? ...and,

That CHRIST shall thereby RETURN to YHVH "void" where those LOVED creatures are concerned? Making a LIE of -- Isaiah 55:11? Is that what you'er saying Maizie?

You need to PROVE that "HELL" exists... first. Just about EVERY modern translation of the WORD does not even use this term (at least 20 or 30). And aside from the KJV, and NKJV, ...the term only appears at most 14 times.

HELL is a TOTAL mistranslation of the words SHEOL [hebrew], HADES, GEHENNA and TARTARUS [greek]...

Modern translators of the Scriptures, are (with each translation effort) verifying that the TYRANT known as KING JAMES, who tortured ANY christian that did not abide according to HIS beliefs... was the chief in this EVIL and misled plot that has turned the GOOD and SAVING NEWS of GOD into EVIL and CONDEMNING NEWS of MAN. You should do some study on this... I have been researching it for over 10 years.

Here's a "HELL ain't in there chart" 4ya:

OT - NT - Total

"Authorized" King James Version 31 - 23 - 54
New King James Version 19 - 13 - 32
American Standard Version 0 - 13 -13
New American Standard Bible 0 -13 -13
Revised Standard Version 0 - 12 - 12
New Revised Standard Version 0- 12 -12
Revised English Bible 0 - 13 - 13
New Living Translation 0- 13 - 13
Amplified 0 - 13 - 13
New International Version 0 - 14 - 14
Darby 0 - 12 - 12
New Century Version 0 - 12 - 12

ALL BELOW -----------------------NONE

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)


[2] --- that "everyone" will be SAVED, IS the GOOD NEWS Maizie... you should hear it... for it is mentioned throughout the NT... and prophesied in the OT.

JESUS was SENT to SAVE the WORLD -- Luke 19:10 -- John 3:16-17 -- 1 John 4:14 -- and to TAKE AWAY its SIN -- John 1:29 -- are YOU saying that HE FAILED to accomplish His DIVINELY ORDERED mission? -- Isaiah 55:11 -- and that YHVH God, knowing the mission could NOT be accomplished -- 1 John 4:20 -- SENT Him to FAIL, nevertheless?

Is that what you are saying Maizie?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Maizie View Post
Our individual answers are the evidence of what we believe about God and His nature.
The "Nature" of GOD is LOVE -- John 8:32

Anyone who has experienced LOVE, knows that if a LOVED ONE is endangered, then the LOVER of that one, will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, in his/her POWER to SAVE the LOVED one.... Which is EXACTLY what the WORD of God states.

If your "individual answer" notes otherwise, then my 67 year life experience, 36 year marriage, 3 kids, 10 grandkids and innumerable friends and family... tells me you are very inexperienced with the "nature" of LOVE.


PEACE... ...willieH
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
A believer has a Goal without any free will?
A "believer" (if indeed CHRIST has established the FAITH" -- Heb 12:2) has submitted Him/herself to CHRIST, for any further activity in his/her life -- Gal 2:20


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
It is the WILL of God to have everyone a believer and to love him for sure but not everyone will make that choice.
I have already provided information concerning this, and you have "chosen" to ignore, iF so... the answer is not for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Have you?
YHVH -- John 6:44 -- drew me to CHRIST... I submitted life unto Him -- Gal 2:20 -- what else do you need to know?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
By what means did you make that choice?
I did not CHOOSE Him, ...HE CHOSE me --John 16:15 --

It is CHRIST which both AUTHORS and FINISHES His FAITH in anyone -- Rev 14:12

NO man "decides" to "BELIEVE" in CHRIST -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 -- 1 Cor 12:3

If that is the case, then the FAITH "believed" is about the deeds of INIQUITY, for MANY which claim to "believe" and CALL JESUS "Lord" ...will hear these words -- Matt 7:22-23

Do you wish to HEAR (as I am providing Scripture for everything)? Or just argue, that you might facilitate your comfort zone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
You are not free to do so?
I am FREE in CHRIST... that which I do and say, are His Fathers WORDS not mine.

I stand on HIS Father's WORDS (as did He -- John 5:19 -- John 12:49) only, not on OPINIONS or TERMINOLOGY that MAN has invented and taught as from the WORD, when those "teachings" have no foundation whatsoever in the WORD.

Prior to my freedom -- John 8:32 -- I was as are you, enslaved to my own will... which by nature, chose poorly. MISSING THE MARK (look up the word SIN = missing the mark).


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Please explain why it was or wasn't your choice to decide to believe.
My "choices" are of the inner man which lives in me, JESUS CHRIST.

How do you choose? Are your choices emergent from HIM or yourself?



Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
What if there is none of this GLORY seen within some? Is it the will of God that there isn't?
ALL things occur in DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- You are not to JUDGE anyone, anyway -- Matt 7:1 -- so if you do not "observe" GLORY in another, it can be either that it is not GIVEN you to SEE -- Rom 9:25 -- Or that the time for GLORY in that other, is not yet DUE to appear. In either case, you are to abstain from determining another.


CHRIST came NOT to CONDEMN -- John 3:16-17 -- John 8:11 -- if indeed HE lives in YOU, and YOU are following and emulating HIS EXAMPLING, ...then you shall NOT CONDEMN either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
You really should read the River Of Fire Rev. Linsinbigler linked.
I am sure Linsinbigler is on his own pathway, of which I know nothing. What he decides to indulge in is his affair, be it worthy or unworthy, is not my place to determine.

The words "river of fire" are not Scriptural... and I am therefore not interested in them.

As far as what "I should READ"... I read the WORD of YHVH daily... it is sufficient... I learn things from Him each day.

As I see it, if you are wise, ...YOU shall be READING, and be RECOMMENDING the WORD of GOD. Not the words of others.



PEACE... ...willieH
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: ((FREE WILL ))- - as per, Willies request

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedbyChrist View Post
I was one who always believed in "Free will". It is evident that God created us with the ability to make our own choices. Like in Genesis Adam received the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Although God commanded Adam not to eat from it he chose to eat from it anyway. Hence he had a choice.

After reading posts from the other thread and seeing most arguing for free will, Willie insisted that it was false teaching and was no where to be found in the bible. I decided to take it upon myself to find scripture to prove free will but to be honest I have found none.

I think we Christians believe in free will because God allows us to choose for our selves. I'm not so sure that He so much allows us but perhaps He "requires" us to make choices. God commanding Adam not to eat of the tree implied that Adam was "required" to make a choice. Is this free will?

Is free will simply the ability to make choices? I'm not so convinced. the word free seems to throw the whole thing off for me. Is it possible for our will to be free?

After some serous thought and digging trying to find proof of free will I have discovered our will is not free at all. Its ALWAYS a slave to what ever influenced the choices being made. For example lets say I'm deciding whether to go to the store or not. If I choose to go to the store the choice is influenced by something like not having anything for dinner, needing milk, toilet paper, or what ever. That choice is influenced by needing or wanting that item. If I choose not to go to the store that decision is influenced by laziness or some other excuse. The point being we cannot make decisions free of influence.



Jesus had a will. Does that mean Jesus had a will free from influence? Or if Jesus chose His will over Gods would He be choosing the influence of the flesh over Gods will?



Jesus was choosing Gods will over the will of the flesh.



Yes he had the ability or (requirement) to choose but would that choice be without influence from God or the flesh?



I don't see how any of these verses show the case of being able to choose free from any influence from the flesh or from God.

From my own understanding (and that's not saying much) I have yet to see any concrete evidence of free will, or the ability to make choices of our own will free from influence.

If our choices are of our own will we sin, but if they are the will of God we make choices free from sin yet still influenced by God.
In reading your post, LBC... I commend you, as, ...you have invested yourself in APPLYING REASON to the subject in question -- Isaiah 1:18 -- which is an element that MUST accompany TRUTH.



PEACE... ...willieH
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