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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

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Old 09-15-2012, 10:08 AM
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Question St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

Has anyone ever wondered about the theology of this verse? I find it fascinating because it shows that Jesus reveals that He is IN HEAVEN evenwhile He was speaking to Nicodemus here on earth.

"And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man who is in heaven." (St. John 3:13, DRB)


This, I believe, refers to the Divine Personhood of Jesus Christ as God the Son. The word "who" shows that the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity remained in Heaven, in the Father's Bosom (or at the Father's Side), even while He was Incarnated as Man here on earth.

God is God who is in Heaven. We pray "Our Father who art in Heaven" ... and in the same way the Son of the Father is also in Heaven, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, in the UNITY of Substance, Essence, or Nature.

Jesus is God so it must follow that He is always in His Heaven. And the great and sublime Mystery is that this is so evenwhile He assumed a real Human Nature and dwelt VISIBLY among us. The Son of Man is the image of the invisible God.



The Son of Man Who is in Heaven.



One last question for consideration, ... what does St. John 3:13 have to do with St. John 6:62-63, "..."Doth this scandalize you? If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" " ? ? ?

How does the Mystery of the Incarnation help us to understand, by Faith, the Mystery of the Most Holy Eucharist (the Flesh of the Glorified Son of Man given as the Bread of Life for us to eat)?



Praised be Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, Who is in Heaven!



A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 09-15-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

From what I hear, the part that says "who is in heaven" was added in and not in the original saying.

Anyway there are some verses that some may think indicate that the son of man is not Jesus alone. After all Jesus refers to the son of man as HE many times instead of I. Some may think it is because as He called His true disciples brothers, and He also gave them the glory that was given to Him as described in John 17, then they are son of man as well.

In the parable of the tares Jesus describes the son of man as he who sows the good seed. In the parable of the sower Jesus says the seed is the word of God. So one could conclude that the son of man is he who sows the good seed which is the word of God. And let us not forget Jesus also said "the son of man comes eating and drinking", which is defined in the verses "My servant will eat but you will go hungry. My servants will drink but you will go thirsty."

As the scriptures show, the son of man is the servant of God. Scripture also tells us who what the servant of God does in theses verses."Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one with whom I am pleased, upon whom I have put my spirit, he will bring forth justice to the nations."
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

Hi AHJE and Prince!

I think that your thesis AHJE is quite right. Though Jesus was manifested among men in the incarnation, the overwhelming reality of the Son of Man still in the heavens, as part of the Godhead, simultaneously also exists. The verses seem to imply the reality of multiple locations of the Son of Man. If indeed God is everywhere, God is also present apart from the manifestation of the Son of Man in the flesh.

As a Quaker, it is not for me to say how this advances the Catholic Eucharist, but I can say that it seemingly establishes for Catholics the possibility of multiple locations of Christ in the performance of that ritual, an argument for transubstantiation.

So then, a critical question about Catholic spirituality emerges that a Catholic must answer: When one is a Catholic in the basilica of a church, and has taken the sacrament, he or she believes that Christ is in his and her belly, a special specific location. And this holds true for those others who have also taken that sacrament. There is also Jesus in multiple locations, piled one atop another, within the Priest's cup and wine at the altar. Those who have not taken the Eucharist are somehow disadvantaged from those that do. How do these multiple locations of Christ, a consequence of the idea of transubstantiation, advance Catholic piety?

Peace be with you!
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:07 AM
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Smile Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOLLAND View Post
Hi AHJE and Prince!

I think that your thesis AHJE is quite right. Though Jesus was manifested among men in the incarnation, the overwhelming reality of the Son of Man still in the heavens, as part of the Godhead, simultaneously also exists. The verses seem to imply the reality of multiple locations of the Son of Man. If indeed God is everywhere, God is also present apart from the manifestation of the Son of Man in the flesh.

As a Quaker, it is not for me to say how this advances the Catholic Eucharist, but I can say that it seemingly establishes for Catholics the possibility of multiple locations of Christ in the performance of that ritual, an argument for transubstantiation.

So then, a critical question about Catholic spirituality emerges that a Catholic must answer: When one is a Catholic in the basilica of a church, and has taken the sacrament, he or she believes that Christ is in his and her belly, a special specific location. And this holds true for those others who have also taken that sacrament. There is also Jesus in multiple locations, piled one atop another, within the Priest's cup and wine at the altar. Those who have not taken the Eucharist are somehow disadvantaged from those that do. How do these multiple locations of Christ, a consequence of the idea of transubstantiation, advance Catholic piety?

Peace be with you!
Hi HOLLAND,

How are you? ... and thank you for your response,

I addressed the issue of the effects of the Sacrament (not merely a ritual) of the Most Holy Eucharist in the following thread:

THE PASSOVER MYSTERY: What began at the LORD'S SUPPER culminated in the ASCENSION.

on this page (post #26): THE PASSOVER MYSTERY: What began at the LORD'S SUPPER culminated in the ASCENSION.

The real question is ... how can one receive Jesus in the Most Holy Eucharist and not be changed, provided the reception of Holy Communion is done in Faith, Hope, Charity, and of course, in a state of grace?

When we receive earthly food (which perishes) that food becomes a part of us ... there is something quite distinct that occurs when we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, ... WE BECOME ASSIMILATED INTO HIM. The Lord is generous and full of compassion to give Himself to the faithful in this manner. Would that all who seek Jesus can receive this grace as well.

God bless you.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:16 AM
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Arrow Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

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Originally Posted by Prince View Post
From what I hear, the part that says "who is in heaven" was added in and not in the original saying.

Anyway there are some verses that some may think indicate that the son of man is not Jesus alone. After all Jesus refers to the son of man as HE many times instead of I.
Dear Prince,

Peace be with you,

Our Blessed Lord referred to Himself in the third person various times. For example, look at St. John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (DRB)

God bless you.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

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Originally Posted by AHJE View Post
Dear Prince,

Peace be with you,

Our Blessed Lord referred to Himself in the third person various times. For example, look at St. John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (DRB)

God bless you.
There are many who believe that this verses was edited in and not part of the original Gospel because Jesus would not have called himself, Jesus Christ.
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHJE View Post

The real question is ... how can one receive Jesus in the Most Holy Eucharist and not be changed, provided the reception of Holy Communion is done in Faith, Hope, Charity, and of course, in a state of grace?

When we receive earthly food (which perishes) that food becomes a part of us ... there is something quite distinct that occurs when we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, ... WE BECOME ASSIMILATED INTO HIM. The Lord is generous and full of compassion to give Himself to the faithful in this manner. Would that all who seek Jesus can receive this grace as well.

Thanks for the references. It eliminates a lot of the theological spadework.

I think that I should at this point to do the honors of establishing the bona fides.

As a Quaker, I agree that this discussion should be based in faith, hope and charity. As the theological virtues lead to the forming of the passions into conformity to the leadings of the spirit. Our discussion is a working of charity and must be informed by it, this is mortification at its most basic. We both have had separate leadings of the spirit and have went different directions. We will need to conduct it in accordance with the civic or cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, especially the first three. The discussion may not lead to any changes of spiritual opinion but should lead to the deepening of the spiritual life.

Now I venture a question. What are the three most important things of your experience of the Eucharist? This will be needed probably to inform how one is "assimulated into Christ" thru the Eucharist.

Peace be with you!
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Old 09-16-2012, 06:13 PM
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Lightbulb Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

Dear HOLLAND,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOLLAND View Post
Thanks for the references. It eliminates a lot of the theological spadework.

I think that I should at this point to do the honors of establishing the bona fides.

As a Quaker, I agree that this discussion should be based in faith, hope and charity. As the theological virtues lead to the forming of the passions into conformity to the leadings of the spirit. Our discussion is a working of charity and must be informed by it, this is mortification at its most basic. We both have had separate leadings of the spirit and have went different directions. We will need to conduct it in accordance with the civic or cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance, especially the first three. The discussion may not lead to any changes of spiritual opinion but should lead to the deepening of the spiritual life.

Now I venture a question. What are the three most important things of your experience of the Eucharist? This will be needed probably to inform how one is "assimulated into Christ" thru the Eucharist.

Peace be with you!
To answer your question, I must first say that these experiences are deeply personal and intimate, but I think that I can share a few things:

(1) Sacramental Communion with Jesus is like GOLD, while spiritual communion with Christ is like silver (by comparison). One can make a spiritual communion by an act of faith and with love and invite Jesus into one's heart. This is great, but I know the difference in my life of walking away from prayer and walking away from the altar.

(2) In Eucharistic Adoration, the greatest gift is that I am seen by Jesus and I am seeing Him in return. He is as Present to me as He was to the Holy Apostles a couple of thousand years ago in Galilee. It is as if I were St. John the Beloved leaning upon the breast of my Redeemer. You could feel Him breathe and experience His heartbeat so to speak. It is difficult to express. The NEARNESS of our God is communicated.

(3) When I receive Jesus in the Most Holy Eucharist, it is as if I have received the answer to all of my hopes and dreams. Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of my life and this is known more fully in Holy Communion. He is the source and summit of the Christian Life. When the Israelites ate the manna in the desert it tasted like anything they desired. In this Holy and Sacred Sacrament I know that Christ is meeting my deepest spiritual needs according to my personal needs by Sacramental Grace unique to this Sacrament.


I hope that helps.

May the Lord bless you on this Lord's Day.
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"... There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him." (Pope Benedict XVI) [Homily of His Holiness, Sunday, April 24th 2005]

GOD MADE MARY
NE - CES - SARY.


When Jesus, the Living Bread, says IS He means IS.

Last edited by AHJE : 09-16-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

Hi AHJE!

Sorry for the delay in posting back. Scheduling and fatigue . . .

For Quakers, communion with Our Lord is immediate and spiritual, without benefit of clergy. Quakers enter into silent prayer and in the silence are fed that spiritual sustenance they need from the Lord. The purpose of their meetings or individual prayer is a closer union with God and to more effective service to others. Quakers coming out of that communion feel a growth of spiritual power and union with the Lord.

To understand Quaker communion from the standpoint of Catholic spirituality, the Quakers are entering into either the prayer of simplicity, passive recollection or, more rarely, the prayer of quiet. (All of these stages, are, by the way, equivalent to the Orthodox prayer of the heart.) Quakers are seeking and entering into spiritual union in their meetings with the occasional locutions and spiritual touches from the Lord.

I am struck by: 1) the feelings of peace and joy coming from the union; 2) a growth in the spiritual gift of counsel; I find myself able to speak more on matters of spiritual significance, and; 3) a greater endurance for periods of aridity and unavoidable persecution from others.

Now to turn to the matter of the thread, regarding the Eucharist. Your joy and fulfilment is manifest in your last posting.

How would you speak to an ex-Catholic who has left your church because of the confusion of multiple locations of Christ in the Mass? I have a suspicion of what your answer shall be, and I suppose dictated as it shall be by joy.

Then there is the matter of transsubstantiation. You're going to have to lead off in that since I am unclear your path of development in this thread.

Peace be with you!
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: St. John 3:13, "...The Son of Man WHO is in heaven."

If the enemies of Jesus will be made his footstool then wouldn't that footstool be in heaven also?
If Satan can present himself before the Lord then can Satan enter heaven?

The verse quoted doesn't say much for men. Does it?
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