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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Worship, veneration, etc.

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  #1  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:52 PM
Linsinbigler's Avatar
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Default Worship, veneration, etc.

Listen people, I will explain this once more, as it has arisen on other threads:

1. Worship is latreia in Scripture
2. Reverence is doulia, timin, or phobos, which Scripture says can be given to God or man (to whom it is due by God given right)
3. Veneration is proskynesis

Veneration can be given in latreia (worship, to God alone) or in doulia/honor.

Scripture commands that we "give honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13.7

1 Peter 2.17 makes it clear that we are to honor everyone in their station. We are to fear God, and even honor the pagan basilea (the case at the time). In case you doubt this, go few verses earlier to 1 Peter 2.13. If this is true of God's enemies, how much more true about his friends.
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  #2  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:49 AM
Moses
 
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
Listen people, I will explain this once more, as it has arisen on other threads:

1. Worship is latreia in Scripture
2. Reverence is doulia, timin, or phobos, which Scripture says can be given to God or man (to whom it is due by God given right)
3. Veneration is proskynesis

Veneration can be given in latreia (worship, to God alone) or in doulia/honor.

Scripture commands that we "give honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13.7

1 Peter 2.17 makes it clear that we are to honor everyone in their station. We are to fear God, and even honor the pagan basilea (the case at the time). In case you doubt this, go few verses earlier to 1 Peter 2.13. If this is true of God's enemies, how much more true about his friends.
Is there a right way and wrong way to honor?
Reverence, is there a line that not to be crossed?
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Is there a right way and wrong way to honor?
Reverence, is there a line that not to be crossed?
That is in the heart, which only God can see.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:09 AM
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

Thanks Linsinbigler, ...

Hmm, ... I always thought that reverence and veneration were the same thing.

You learn something new everyday (I hope).
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:18 AM
Moses
 
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

The beginning of wisdom is reverence for YHWH

In some translations

The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom.

If the Israelites had continued in their reverence for YHWH, they would never have been taken captive into Assyria and Babylon, and thus they would never have had to change their message of acknowledging God's grace.

7. "Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares YHWH, "when they no longer say, 'As the YHWH lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,'

8. but, 'As YHWH lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.' Then they will live on their own soil."

Proverbs 16:6:

6. By loving kindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,

And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil.

Last edited by Moses : 07-22-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Is there a right way and wrong way to honor?
Reverence, is there a line that not to be crossed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selene View Post
That is in the heart, which only God can see.
Thank you Selene, thats exactly what I was going to say.

A large part of whether or not something is sinful is the intent of the person. Its not the only part, but its a large part.

Obviously some things are objectively sinful, things like murder or rape. But on an issue such as how I honor someone worthy of honor, God knows our hearts and what we are doing and why we are doing it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
.... A large part of whether or not something is sinful is the intent of the person. Its not the only part, but its a large part.

Obviously some things are objectively sinful.......
A good point, which highlights the big difference between Moses's point of view and the view of many of the Catholics here. It seems to me that Moses considers certain practices, such as bowing before a statue of Mary for example, to be objectively sinful, whereas many consider that it is only ever subjectively sinful, if the intent is incorrect.

I know in the OT that idolatry is forbidden, I'm sure we are all in agreement on that. What I am personally not sure of yet, is how much or how little the NT (and particularly the fact that the invisible God took flesh and became visible to us) changes this. Is there anything in the Church Fathers which would clarify how they understood this matter?
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddybear View Post
A good point, which highlights the big difference between Moses's point of view and the view of many of the Catholics here. It seems to me that Moses considers certain practices, such as bowing before a statue of Mary for example, to be objectively sinful, whereas many consider that it is only ever subjectively sinful, if the intent is incorrect.

I know in the OT that idolatry is forbidden, I'm sure we are all in agreement on that. What I am personally not sure of yet, is how much or how little the NT (and particularly the fact that the invisible God took flesh and became visible to us) changes this. Is there anything in the Church Fathers which would clarify how they understood this matter?
You know, an interesting consideration is the angels present in services where there are prayers and worship. You almost always have to lower your head because of the presence of God via the angels and the Holy Spirit is so strong. I do not understand why bowing one's head is anything but respectful.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

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Originally Posted by Maizie View Post
You know, an interesting consideration is the angels present in services where there are prayers and worship. You almost always have to lower your head because of the presence of God via the angels and the Holy Spirit is so strong. I do not understand why bowing one's head is anything but respectful.

Moses would argue that bowing to a statue is different than bowing to an actual angel.

But that issue has been addressed more than once over ther centuries:


2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787 A.D.) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
70 St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45:PG 32,149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: SC 126; LG 67.
71 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,81,3 ad 3
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  #10  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:03 PM
Moses
 
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Default Re: Worship, veneration, etc.

Even in the OT if you see people of faith prostrate them selves in front the King.

David didn't hurt Gods Anointed king Saul even when Saul was in the cave looking to kill David.

Yet with statues its different, they can be memorials of saints but the act it self as bowing to it even if in the hearth the person bowing or kissing the statue are thinking and devoting to a saint in heaven still they commit the physical act of kissing and bowing to clay and stone.

God punished Israelites even He knew that they were led astray by corrupt King and God even told via the prophet Jeremiah that to the king, that because he deceived the Israelites, they will be punished as a result and they were punished.

Obviously they thought in their hearths that they are doing the right thing wile they were not. And they paid a price.

Avon - Hebrew is a Sin or transgression that a person commits unknowingly or without bad intent.
The punishment for Avon was leaser then for the deliberate sin. But some times objectively sinful actions passed as deceit in a form of religious practice, such as sacrificing children to moloch.
Can you imagine a parent sacrificing a child to daemons and thinking he is serving God by this?

That's why I always say that there is a fine line in these practice.

CC is right in his assumption that I will argue that bowing to a statue is different than bowing to an actual angel.
I still do.

If I trow at you a mud and make your close or face dirty you will be angry at me no mater if I did it deliberately and on purpose.
Now you have to go and change and clean you self etc.

The action is still producing a consequence. The moment one bowed or kissed the statues that one directed Religious worship to the statue of clay and stone or wood. This is no longer passes to its prototype and the council would have forbiden such action.

Last edited by Moses : 07-23-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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