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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Old Test. God vs New Test. God

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  #1  
Old 06-16-2012, 04:43 PM
prophetofsong's Avatar
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Default Old Test. God vs New Test. God

Another issue I've had for quite some time: How exactly does one harmonize the different perceptions of God given in the Bible into one consistent and coherent personality? For example, you have God in the Old testament supposedly telling Israel to kill people for this and that sin or wipe out this or that city. He is often shown to be vengeful and unforgiving.

Enter the New testament, you have Jesus, the supposed son of God (and also God himself...still figuring that one out), going around healing people, telling them to always forgive and to love their enemies.

Of course, God is sometimes kind in the old testament and sometimes mean in the new (Revelation comes to mind), but overall I've found it difficult to really combine the different perceptions of God given in the Bible into a being that is not completely contradictory in nature.

It would seem almost most sensible to assume that there are simply different perceptions given and neither are necessarily "the way it really is", persay.
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  #2  
Old 06-16-2012, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

God is not a sitcom that wraps up in thirty minutes.

Something absolutely monumental took place that day Jesus was crucified.
It was and is so powerful that it changed everything.
No longer do we have to fear death and even more, we can have life and have it more abundantly.


As for the Old Testament, what did God ask of His people? First and foremost, do not worship other gods.
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  #3  
Old 06-16-2012, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

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Originally Posted by prophetofsong View Post
Another issue I've had for quite some time: How exactly does one harmonize the different perceptions of God given in the Bible into one consistent and coherent personality? For example, you have God in the Old testament supposedly telling Israel to kill people for this and that sin or wipe out this or that city. He is often shown to be vengeful and unforgiving.

Enter the New testament, you have Jesus, the supposed son of God (and also God himself...still figuring that one out), going around healing people, telling them to always forgive and to love their enemies.

Of course, God is sometimes kind in the old testament and sometimes mean in the new (Revelation comes to mind), but overall I've found it difficult to really combine the different perceptions of God given in the Bible into a being that is not completely contradictory in nature.

It would seem almost most sensible to assume that there are simply different perceptions given and neither are necessarily "the way it really is", persay.
God says it here... in the OT (Old Testament):

"For I am the LORD, I change not" Malachi 3:6

He also explains why it is so difficult for the carnal man to understand, first in the OT:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

And then again in the NT (New Testament):

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15

If we write it all off by saying it "would seem almost most sensible to assume" are we not assuming that we, none of us, can ever have the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear" needed to see and understand God's Ways and God's thoughts rather than our own? Can we then never come to understand the parables of Jesus as He understood them?

Whose understanding is so God-like that he is able to say, let us use our human logic and build our own tower up to God and then we will understand it all perfectly.

That's was tried already in Genesis 11. It did not work then and it will not work now. There is an answer, but that ain't likely to be it.
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  #4  
Old 06-16-2012, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

What I'm going to tell you is UNCOMMON KNOWLEDGE,.....so don't think you can check with someone and they will agree, understand, or WANT to agree/understand, just use your common sense to believe whatever makes sense to you.

In O.T. times, the Jews did not know that God had a son (their promised Messiah hadn't come yet and they also did not know it would be His SON). For that reason, the Jews only worshipped "Jehovah" (they also could not have ETERNAL "purification"/salvation for their SOULS).

The Jews were able to obtain only TEMPORARY "purification" for their violations of MOSAIC LAW (which was a combination of what Moses brought down from the mountain PLUS all the rules/ordinances that Moses 'dreamed up'/invented) by performing rituals of animal sacrifices ("the blood of bulls and goats" was most common) and offerings to Jehovah God, but these rituals had to be repeated every year on the day of atonement.

Ephesians 2:15
"by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".

Now, the law we are to be judged under is the LIBERTY "law" (not earthly logical for LIBERTY to be LAW, is it?...it is GODLY LOGICAL).

James 1:25 "PERFECT law".

James 2:12
"So speak and so act AS THOSE to be judged under the LAW OF LIBERTY".

Now (for us), JESUS is the FINAL and everlasting/ETERNAL sin sacrifice (now we worship 'GOD ETERNAL', same God, different dispensation/covenant) and His "eternal Spirit" (same spirit, different dispensation/covenant).

Hebrews 9:14
"ETERNAL spirit......purify your conscience".

God sent Jesus in "the fulness of time" (the completion/end of "time"). Jesus ended the age of time and started the age of ETERNITY (now God's purification is ETERNAL, not TEMPORARY).

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for RSV

God always had a "Spirit" ("Spirit of Holiness", Holy Spirit).

Jesus is now the COMPLETION/ENTIRETY of God,....and so, you will see that 2 John 1:9 says that we now have "BOTH the Father and the SON" (God's Spirit is now all inclusive/integral and needs no separate mention).

"does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son".

That's right, our worship is of 'GOD ETERNAL'. It is likely that no one understands this (or ever did), so if you expect someone to be able to agree with what I've written, you will not only be disappointed, but you will hear a lot of "Bu...BU..but, I du know, it sounds crazy, it must mean something else" and "Forget about nonsense, just keep "FOLLOWING" like a good puppet/soldier and bring us your money".

There are many things that were never understood by believers and scholars. TRUTH is unnecessary for the modern day moneychangers (Judaizers), in fact, it is counterproductive to them because they just want us to be OBEDIENT TO 'THEM' and have us keep bringing them our money (we are not good stewarts unless all our money goes to our family).

Incident at Antioch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Acts 11:26...
"and in Antioch, the disciples were first called Christians".

Seventeen years after the crucifixion, the Jews that came to Christ decided at the "Incident at Antioch" to no longer be MEMBERS OF "THE WAY" because they still wanted to follow MOSAIC LAW.

The Jewish/Hebrew believers who came to Jesus as the promised messiah in the O.T./Judaic scriptures never understood that they must no longer have a "foundation" of "repentance" and that JESUS must now be their ONLY FOUNDATION.

Hebrews chapter 6 is explaining that the new teachings/principles about 'Jesus salvation' no longer require performing 'works of righteousness' in order to acheive cleanliness/"repentance" (spiritual purity) and that our ONLY FOUNDATION should be Christ Himself.......AND NEITHER should we have a simple "faith TOWARD God" (we should have a "FAITH FOR faith").....

Romans 1:17....."the righteousness of God is revealed through FAITH FOR FAITH".

Having a foundation other than CHRIST ONLY is "apostasy".....(having a foundation other than CHRIST ONLY makes it "impossible" to "restore" us to spiritual purity). ...."For God is not so unjust....".

When someone first comes to Jesus, they are a "babe in Christ" and are taught/"fed" with "milk". They are taught to do works of righteousness (have a foundation of repentance), but they are not taught the need to "move on" to maturity in Christ so that they will have ONLY JESUS as THEIR FOUNDATION.

The "law" was really only necessary for the 'CRIMINAL type' of human being.

At that time, God fully recognized that many believers today would make the same mistake of not 'moving on' to a mature ("more excellent", 1 Corin.12:31) devotion, so He ensured that this important explanation was in scripture for us to read, but it does not mean that those who never learn to move on to a deeper devotion based on the love FOR GOD ("the GREATEST of these", 1 Corin. 13:13) will end up in the lake of fire.....(for "GOD IS NOT SO UNJUST" Hebrews 6:10, saved through fire??) as to overlook all of the "works" they did and the love they showed to each other FOR HIS SAKE (it's not about love for EACH OTHER, it's about having TRUE love FOR GOD HIMSELF').....we are only to have regard/love for others AS we also have regard/love for ourself (I don't go around kissing myself or showering myself with gifts, I'm sane and emotionally stable).

So do not make it impossible to be restored to spiritual purity by not moving on to a deeper and truly PERSONAL relationship with Jesus. Learn of the "better things" that are part of salvation (Hebrews 6:9) and have a "faith for faith" (trust that God is a REWARDER, not a punisher', Hebrews 11:6).

1 Corinthians 3:2
"I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready".

Hebrews 5:14
"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil".

God had Pilate ask "What is truth?" (the OBJECTIVE truth about Jesus was declared by the state to be "INNOCENT", but He was sent to the cross because the people chose SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead).....the question was not answered at the time.

We no longer have mere EXISTENCE in TIME, we have "LIFE"....REAL LIFE....LIFE eternal.


John 14:6...."I am THE WAY..."....."I am...the TRUTH"...."I am...the LIFE".


What was said in scripture 2,000 years ago was said to people that were alive 2,000 years ago (not all applies to us except the GOSPEL "doctrine of Christ).

All verses are from the RSV.

Last edited by moreexcellentway : 06-16-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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  #5  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:05 AM
xenic101's Avatar
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
God says it here... in the OT (Old Testament):

"For I am the LORD, I change not" Malachi 3:6

He also explains why it is so difficult for the carnal man to understand, first in the OT:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

And then again in the NT (New Testament):

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15

If we write it all off by saying it "would seem almost most sensible to assume" are we not assuming that we, none of us, can ever have the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear" needed to see and understand God's Ways and God's thoughts rather than our own? Can we then never come to understand the parables of Jesus as He understood them?

Whose understanding is so God-like that he is able to say, let us use our human logic and build our own tower up to God and then we will understand it all perfectly.

That's was tried already in Genesis 11. It did not work then and it will not work now. There is an answer, but that ain't likely to be it.
Well said.

2 points the OP seems to overlook.

God does not have our shortsightedness. When we look at differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament regarding the message, we have to take a larger view to understand the harmony, otherwise we only see God killing everyone in a flood, and fail to see that if he hadn't, and hadn't waited until the last possible moment, then the gospel would have been lost completely, and all mankind thereafter would have no hope for salvation. God always does what is in the best interest of His children, even when we don't see it at the time.

The Old Testament largely records God's interactions with Israel, while teaching Israel the principles of the Gospel. The New Testament records Christ's teachings to us regarding our relationship to God and to each other. They are the same principles, but not the same thing.
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  #6  
Old 06-17-2012, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

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Originally Posted by xenic101 View Post
Well said.

2 points the OP seems to overlook.

God does not have our shortsightedness. When we look at differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament regarding the message, we have to take a larger view to understand the harmony, otherwise we only see God killing everyone in a flood, and fail to see that if he hadn't, and hadn't waited until the last possible moment, then the gospel would have been lost completely, and all mankind thereafter would have no hope for salvation. God always does what is in the best interest of His children, even when we don't see it at the time.

The Old Testament largely records God's interactions with Israel, while teaching Israel the principles of the Gospel. The New Testament records Christ's teachings to us regarding our relationship to God and to each other. They are the same principles, but not the same thing.
God's creation was very good and therefore in harmony, one part with every other part. If understanding of God is to come from the Bible, we cannot set aside as nonsense any part of it, perhaps not even what is known as the Apocropha. Where would you see the Book of Mormon in this? (Answer here or via PM as you prefer.)

Man is the discordant note in the otherwise harmonious chord and he (man) is the one who made it so.

God, understanding exactly what man was and what his potentials were, gave man all that he needs to understand all that man needs to understand. How many men really are willing to do whatever God requires of them for them to understand and accomplish what God desires? Given all of this, God wants a people who do not have to be force-fed. He will have such a people, but most of us, in spite of our Christian label, will not be a part of that people. IMHO.
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  #7  
Old 06-18-2012, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
If understanding of God is to come from the Bible, we cannot set aside as nonsense any part of it, perhaps not even what is known as the Apocropha. Where would you see the Book of Mormon in this? (Answer here or via PM as you prefer.)
The Old Testament is a testament of Christ by His Prophets prior to His Mortal Ministry, the New Testament is a testament of Christ by His Prophets during and after His Mortal Ministry. The Book of Mormon is a testament of Christ by His Prophets spanning both time periods. As such, it both reaffirms both the Old and New Testaments while helping to show how they are in harmony and carry the same message...and understanding I think is missing in many churches.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

One sort of philisophical way to look at this subject is that God has treated man throughout history the way a parent might treat a child. When the child is young they understand punishment more than reason, and at some point they reach an age where reason works better than a spanking.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
One sort of philisophical way to look at this subject is that God has treated man throughout history the way a parent might treat a child. When the child is young they understand punishment more than reason, and at some point they reach an age where reason works better than a spanking.
At some point in OT it moved to Husband wife relationship.
At some point the punishment was not of Loving Father but of Jealous Husband.
Divorce and second chance entered the "play".
Final divorce and new bride etc. All the Husband wanted was Love and Fidelity.
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: Old Test. God vs New Test. God

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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
At some point in OT it moved to Husband wife relationship..........
Yes, that is also true.

It culminates in the last book of the Bible. Even though it is often called "Revelation", it was classically called the Apocolypse, which is from the Greek for the Unveilling, a reference to when the bridegroom unveils his bride.
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