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  #1  
Old 05-20-2012, 01:40 PM
lesjude
 
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Default Killing and the Christian

Killing and the Christian
The principle of Mat. 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what fatther God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Romans 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not the Holy Spirit of Life. Note what Jesus says in Mat. 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. Also Rev 13:7-10 The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance.

Genesis 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

Genesis 9:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of God's judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full. Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight, even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. See I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3. What is Jesus' view of "just" wars and physical violence? Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems, or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches. see Ezra 8:21-23.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws. PTSD can be overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall also makes the same point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green sector on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 men not killed or wounded of over 200. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons in this group and in all these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. It appears the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a regular bunch of draftees that had not even seen "the elephant" yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open about telling recruits this, and perhaps best at it. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers.
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:08 PM
JoJo's Avatar
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian



First let me say, youíre using two titles, God and Father arenít names. God does have a name he allow ALL to use ,(Exo. 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them), kj version. Jesus even made Godís name known to those Jehovah sent to Jesus, (John 17:6 -I have manifested, (to make evidence by showing or displaying), thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word). those who God sent to Jesus, was shown Godís name.

Many, Iíve heard say, God was into wars, murder. But what they fail to realize, any killings were for the sake of his people, NOT for a country. Which is what man does today. Jehovah Godís servants donít go to war, because they know if they did, They would be fighting against each other. Just as the Angels donít fight each other, neither should Godís servants. Heíll soon, (using his faithful son Jesus), do away with wars, and the governments that causes them , (Dan.2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever).

Despite what many are lead to believe, worldly governments arenít with the true God, theyíre against him, (Psa.2:2-4 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands, (something that binds or restraints),asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision, (the use of ridicule to show contempt ).the government will go up against God and his people. NO followers of Jesus, should go to war. peace
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:21 PM
lesjude
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoJo View Post
First let me say, youíre using two titles, God and Father arenít names. God does have a name he allow ALL to use ,(Exo. 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them), kj version. Jesus even made Godís name known to those Jehovah sent to Jesus, (John 17:6 -I have manifested, (to make evidence by showing or displaying), thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word). those who God sent to Jesus, was shown Godís name.

Many, Iíve heard say, God was into wars, murder. But what they fail to realize, any killings were for the sake of his people, NOT for a country. Which is what man does today. Jehovah Godís servants donít go to war, because they know if they did, They would be fighting against each other. Just as the Angels donít fight each other, neither should Godís servants. Heíll soon, (using his faithful son Jesus), do away with wars, and the governments that causes them , (Dan.2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever).

Despite what many are lead to believe, worldly governments arenít with the true God, theyíre against him, (Psa.2:2-4 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands, (something that binds or restraints),asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision, (the use of ridicule to show contempt ).the government will go up against God and his people. NO followers of Jesus, should go to war. peace
A Detailed History of the name
A Detailed History of the name "Jehovah". Researched (and greatly appreciated) for The Church of Yahweh By Jeroen Ashton. In 1278 a spanish monk, ...
A Detailed History of the name
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  #4  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:57 PM
Prophet1
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

A Christian will trust, and obey God. Jesus told us to love our enemies. Jesus told us to not give an evil person any resistance.

Jesus told us that before he came it were an eye for an eye.

Jesus came to complete the law. What was the Law before Jesus is no more relevant.

(Matthew 5:39) ďYou have learnt how it was said: ĎEye for eye and tooth for tooth.í But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.Ē

(Matthew 5:43-44) ďYou have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.Ē
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  #5  
Old 05-28-2012, 09:10 PM
BobbyJoe
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

Luke 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, you betray the Son of man with a kiss?
22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer you thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

A mighty warrior is the Lord.
Every Christain is in a war for His soul if you do not know this then you certainly have not been quickened by the spirit of God. We do not allow a murder to inter our house and kill our children one at a time without trying to fight back.

The Lord tells them to buy a sword. He is not talking about the sword of the Lord for they have the script with them.
The Lord did not rebuke the disciple for cutting off the persons ear either. This is showing that there is a time to war as stated in Ecclesiastes
And it was not many years after the Lords departure that the Christain right after the biblical days warred against their enemies for survival.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, you betray the Son of man with a kiss?
22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer you thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

Yet the Lord allowed the ear to be cut off to show his love even unto our enemies even if we must war in order to have freedom. If it were not for war the Christain movement would have been stopped years ago for the devil is in charge of the unsaved nations and would have annihilated the christain countries years ago if possible.
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  #6  
Old 05-28-2012, 10:17 PM
lesjude
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyJoe View Post
Luke 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, you betray the Son of man with a kiss?
22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer you thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
Matthew 26:51-52

New King James Version (NKJV)

51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

52 But Jesus said to him, ďPut your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish[a] by the sword.
Quote:
A mighty warrior is the Lord.
Every Christain is in a war for His soul if you do not know this then you certainly have not been quickened by the spirit of God.
2 Corinthians 10:3-5 (New King James Version)

2 Corinthians 10:3-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

Ephesians 6:12-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Quote:
We do not allow a murder to inter our house and kill our children one at a time without trying to fight back.
Psalm 91 is true. God will not allow this if you believe. His angles are with us.
Quote:
The Lord tells them to buy a sword. He is not talking about the sword of the Lord for they have the script with them.
Jesus told them to buy a sword for the lesson in non resistance I have already quoted. 2 swords you will notice He said were enough and would have made no real difference in their situation.
Quote:
The Lord did not rebuke the disciple for cutting off the persons ear either. This is showing that there is a time to war as stated in Ecclesiastes
This is NOT true: 52 But Jesus said to him, ďPut your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish[a] by the sword.

Quote:
And it was not many years after the Lords departure that the Christain right after the biblical days warred against their enemies for survival.
No, the early Christians either fled or died as Martyrs. They NEVER resisted.
Quote:
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, you betray the Son of man with a kiss?
22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer you thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
I have explained this above.
Quote:
Yet the Lord allowed the ear to be cut off to show his love even unto our enemies even if we must war in order to have freedom. If it were not for war the Christain movement would have been stopped years ago for the devil is in charge of the unsaved nations and would have annihilated the christain countries years ago if possible.
No, Satan can do NOTHING God does not allow. The blood of the martyrs only made the early church stronger. They ALWAYS believed, lived, and died if necessary by nonresistance.
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:34 AM
Prophet1
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

Lesjude, thank you, people need to hear the truth.

My understanding is if Constantine the Great had not deceived the Church; Christians would all be still one, and led by the Holy Spirit.

I give my witness that Jesus personally told me that we were not to harm anyone for any reason. This was after I had served five years in the US armed forces.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:19 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesjude View Post
Killing and the Christian
The principle of Mat. 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all............
So, if some thugs armed with guns break into your house and start raping your wife & daughter, and your only recourse is armed conlict, are saying you will just sit there and watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet1 View Post
......My understanding is if Constantine the Great had not deceived the Church; Christians would all be still one, and led by the Holy Spirit........
Your understanding is flawed and erroneous in the extreme
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:10 PM
lesjude
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
So, if some thugs armed with guns break into your house and start raping your wife & daughter, and your only recourse is armed conlict, are saying you will just sit there and watch?


Your understanding is flawed and erroneous in the extreme
Quote:
So, if some thugs armed with guns break into your house and start raping your wife & daughter, and your only recourse is armed conlict, are saying you will just sit there and watch?
Psalm 91 is true and is the disciples' ASSURANCE policy which will stop these kinds of things before they occur. His angels are with believers. However if you do not know about Psalm 91 or have faith in what it says it is useless. Please read it.
If God does allow a direct confrontation (nothing can happen to a believing, obedient Christian that God does not allow and gives them the spiritual weapons to use to stop it) then we have spiritual weapons to stop it by stopping the demons that drive these types of people. If you do not have them, do not know what they are, do not believe this, do not use them ugly things happen. Martyrdom of course is the exception, but fairly rare and usually known in advance by the person. A free will choice I believe is made by that person to be a martyr.
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  #10  
Old 05-29-2012, 12:13 PM
Prophet1
 
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Default Re: Killing and the Christian

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
So, if some thugs armed with guns break into your house and start raping your wife & daughter, and your only recourse is armed conlict, are saying you will just sit there and watch?


Your understanding is flawed and erroneous in the extreme
First of all hypothetical situations can be just be a trick of Satan’s to scare people into not trusting in God. You should know one does not always receive the grace to do God’s will until it is needed.


If one is trusting in God, and he is trustworthy, he will make sure evil things will not happen to his people. That does not mean that evil people will not harm one of God’s, but if it happens then it is for God glory, and no amount of resistance, from the victim would change anything.

Christians are followers of Jesus. Jesus told us to offer the evil person no resistance. If one does not obey God he or she will never be a temple of God’s. Read the following verse.

(John 14:21-23) “Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.' Judas –not Judas Iscariot – said to him, ‘Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Now read what Jesus told us to do.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

You have your opinion that my understanding of this subject is flawed to the extreme; do you have any words from the bible to back up what you think of my understanding?

Last edited by Prophet1 : 05-29-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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