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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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  #1  
Old 12-28-2011, 10:27 PM
Moses
 
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Default If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

If Abraham is a first Hebrew then Ishmael the son of Abraham and Hagar the Egyptian is also a Hebrew.

The designation �Hebrew� is first used for Abram, distinguishing him thereby from his Amorite neighbors. (Ge 14:13) the Biblical evidence is that �Hebrew� (`Iv�ri�) comes from the name Eber (`E�ver), that of the great-grandson of Shem and an ancestor of Abraham. (Ge 11:10-26)

Joseph had an Egyptian for a wife and they had children who are Hebrew.

Last edited by Moses : 12-28-2011 at 10:29 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Dwaine
 
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
If Abraham is a first Hebrew then Ishmael the son of Abraham and Hagar the Egyptian is also a Hebrew.

The designation �Hebrew� is first used for Abram, distinguishing him thereby from his Amorite neighbors. (Ge 14:13) the Biblical evidence is that �Hebrew� (`Iv�ri�) comes from the name Eber (`E�ver), that of the great-grandson of Shem and an ancestor of Abraham. (Ge 11:10-26)

Joseph had an Egyptian for a wife and they had children who are Hebrew.
I have read,The Moslems (arabs)trace their lineage to Ishmael.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Moses
 
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Dwaine View Post
I have read,The Moslems (arabs)trace their lineage to Ishmael.
Arabs as I read to no meter what their religion Muslim or Christian are descendants of Ishmarl, who was a Hebrew.

The difference one will argue is the Mother giving he birth. As Isac was born to Sarai and Abram, his half sister yet of the same people.
Wile Hagar was Egyptian so Ishmael had Hebrew father and Egyptian mother.

But Asenath was the wife of Joseph and the mother of Ephraim and Manasseh. The daughter of Poti-pherah the priest of On. The Egyptian Pharaoh gave to Joseph, son of Jacob, Asenath, to be his wife. She bore Joseph two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who each became patriarchs of their own tribes of Israel.

This shows that Hagar been Egyptian is not having any effect on the fact the Ishmael was a Hebrew, because he was a son of Abraham the Hebrew.

The book of Jubilees non canonical but held by small minoroty as canonical, places the location and identity of the Ishmaelites as the Arab peoples residing in Arab territories. This is the current view for the majority of the Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths, though according to Biblical accounts the Arab people traditionally have had long-standing alliances with the descendants of the Assyrians and the Medes. Furthermore, the Arab populations in modernity represent many nations rather than one nation as specified biblically; genetic and historical evidence indicates that (for instance) the Arabs of Lebanon are the descendants of the Phoenicians (the Biblical Canaanites) and that the Arabs of Palestine, Syria, and Jordan are descended from Canaanites, Aramaeans, and even Hebrews.

“ And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation. ”

Interesting from Wikki

Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of Arab people,[2] excluding Arabs who are descendants of Ya'rub. Arabs who are from Ishmael-descendant tribes are occasionally referred to as "Arabized-Arabs" to highlight their ancestry. The Prophet Muhammad was of these Arabs. However, many modern Arabs also believe their tribes and houses to be of Isaac's blood line, in particular in Southern Palestine.[citation needed]
Jewish traditions are split between those, like Josephus, who consider Ishmael the ancestor of the Arabs,[14] and those, like Maimonides, who believe that the northern Arabs are descended from the sons of Keturah, whom Abraham married after Sarah's death.

Last edited by Moses : 12-29-2011 at 08:49 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-30-2011, 02:18 PM
Dwaine
 
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Arabs as I read to no meter what their religion Muslim or Christian are descendants of Ishmarl, who was a Hebrew.

The difference one will argue is the Mother giving he birth. As Isac was born to Sarai and Abram, his half sister yet of the same people.
Wile Hagar was Egyptian so Ishmael had Hebrew father and Egyptian mother.

But Asenath was the wife of Joseph and the mother of Ephraim and Manasseh. The daughter of Poti-pherah the priest of On. The Egyptian Pharaoh gave to Joseph, son of Jacob, Asenath, to be his wife. She bore Joseph two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who each became patriarchs of their own tribes of Israel.

This shows that Hagar been Egyptian is not having any effect on the fact the Ishmael was a Hebrew, because he was a son of Abraham the Hebrew.

The book of Jubilees non canonical but held by small minoroty as canonical, places the location and identity of the Ishmaelites as the Arab peoples residing in Arab territories. This is the current view for the majority of the Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths, though according to Biblical accounts the Arab people traditionally have had long-standing alliances with the descendants of the Assyrians and the Medes. Furthermore, the Arab populations in modernity represent many nations rather than one nation as specified biblically; genetic and historical evidence indicates that (for instance) the Arabs of Lebanon are the descendants of the Phoenicians (the Biblical Canaanites) and that the Arabs of Palestine, Syria, and Jordan are descended from Canaanites, Aramaeans, and even Hebrews.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.

Interesting from Wikki

Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of Arab people,[2] excluding Arabs who are descendants of Ya'rub. Arabs who are from Ishmael-descendant tribes are occasionally referred to as "Arabized-Arabs" to highlight their ancestry. The Prophet Muhammad was of these Arabs. However, many modern Arabs also believe their tribes and houses to be of Isaac's blood line, in particular in Southern Palestine.[citation needed]
Jewish traditions are split between those, like Josephus, who consider Ishmael the ancestor of the Arabs,[14] and those, like Maimonides, who believe that the northern Arabs are descended from the sons of Keturah, whom Abraham married after Sarah's death.
Well then you agree the(arabs)Moslems are direct decendants of Abraham.
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  #5  
Old 12-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Moses
 
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Well then you agree the(arabs)Moslems are direct decendants of Abraham.
I agree that many of the Arabs are descendants of Abraham, but not all. Also there non Arab Muslims , and there are also Arab Christians.
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  #6  
Old 12-30-2011, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Dwaine View Post
I have read,The Moslems (arabs)trace their lineage to Ishmael.
As an Orthodox Christian I must inform you that you are treading on territory that you know little about. Yes, the children of Ishmael are indeed Hebrews. Likewise, many "Arabs" are Christian, in fact, a majority of those who are Christian are Orthodox Christian, and I know personally many of them. The Lebonese are majority Christian. Some of the others have abandoned their Christian faith at the point of a sword, whereas others secretely still hold Christianity. But Christ can make children of Abraham out of stones, so in the end, it matters NOT what anyone's physical origin is. If they partake of the Christ-Messiah of Israel, then they are of one Body and Blood with Him, and are children of Israel and of Abraham, just as He was.
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2011, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
If Abraham is a first Hebrew then Ishmael the son of Abraham and Hagar the Egyptian is also a Hebrew.

The designation �Hebrew� is first used for Abram, distinguishing him thereby from his Amorite neighbors. (Ge 14:13) the Biblical evidence is that �Hebrew� (`Iv�ri�) comes from the name Eber (`E�ver), that of the great-grandson of Shem and an ancestor of Abraham. (Ge 11:10-26)

Joseph had an Egyptian for a wife and they had children who are Hebrew.
When Abraham was called Abram he was a hebrew. When he found the father, he became the father of the nations. When you read the new testament you see the jews said they were saved because their father was Abraham. So the hebrews were the ones that had the scriptures but had not attained the Spiritual understanding of them yet. So when Abram became Abraham , his name changed because the Spirit of the father was with him and people in Abraham were also no longer hebrews. Just as many nations came from Abraham, many waters come from Jesus and the waters become nations.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:30 PM
Dwaine
 
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
As an Orthodox Christian I must inform you that you are treading on territory that you know little about. Yes, the children of Ishmael are indeed Hebrews. Likewise, many "Arabs" are Christian, in fact, a majority of those who are Christian are Orthodox Christian, and I know personally many of them. The Lebonese are majority Christian. Some of the others have abandoned their Christian faith at the point of a sword, whereas others secretely still hold Christianity. But Christ can make children of Abraham out of stones, so in the end, it matters NOT what anyone's physical origin is. If they partake of the Christ-Messiah of Israel, then they are of one Body and Blood with Him, and are children of Israel and of Abraham, just as He was.
But the fact remains that the moslems{arabs} can trace their origins to Abraham,as well as to esau {edomites}.The conflict in the middle east is brother against brother ,that is my opinion.And I feel the only path to peace is to face that reality,THe Moslems like the Jews should be our freinds not our enemies,as we all worship the same God.Dont you think?
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  #9  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:40 PM
Dwaine
 
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Default Re: If Abraham is a first Hebrew then who is Ishmael?

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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
I agree that many of the Arabs are descendants of Abraham, but not all. Also there non Arab Muslims , and there are also Arab Christians.
This is true.
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