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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

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  #1  
Old 06-23-2011, 07:51 AM
Hobie
 
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Default Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day”, but the fullness of that statement needs to be understood by understanding who Jesus was.


“For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus was, in reality, revealing that He Himself was the One who originally made Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. The New Testament is very clear that Jesus Christ is not just our Savior, but is also our Creator. Notice carefully:

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made. John 1:3

He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. John 1:10

God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. Eph. 3:9 KJV

For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Col. 1:16

Thus Jesus Christ is our Creator. The One who created, rested. Thus the Sabbath commandment, when correctly understood in the light of both the Old and New Testaments, points to Jesus Christ

Now some may say but God the great Jehovah created the earth in the beginning, but here is were the mystery of the Trinity has to be understood in order to understand who Jesus was.

Jesus is the Jehovah of ALL the Bible. He is the LORD Jehovah that walked in the cool of the day in Eden. Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was Jehovah God who gave the Ten Commandments. Jesus was Jehovah God who was in the pillar of fire by night and cloud by day. Jesus was Jehovah God who appeared to Moses in the fiery bush and declared I am that I am.

Jesus’ Claims About Himself - John 8 (New International Version)
48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus.

Lets look at this story of Moses and the Burning Bush.

“14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” (Ex 3:14-15 )

Now scripture shows us even more clearly who Christ is, if we just let the Holy Spirit guide us into truth.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST
Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Now lets look at who is the Savior:

“ I, even I, am the LORD ; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isa 43:11 )

“ Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” (Isa 45:21 )

“ Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” (** 13:4 )

“ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;” (1Ti 1:1 )

“ But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” (2Pe 3:18 )

“ For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:” (Php 3:20 AV)


Jesus is truly the Creator, Jehovah, the First and the Last, our Saviour and Lord of the Sabbath. It is His day of worship from Creation, the day of rest, made for man not man for the Sabbath..

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

The Sabbath was not just for the Jews, but for all mankind which the Creator gave us.
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  #2  
Old 06-23-2011, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

If Jesus was not Jehovah as a Man, then there has yet to be anyone qualified to yield Perfect Obedience to God's Law, and to bare its penalty to the degree that God the Righteous Judge is all the way satisfied with those it was bared for, for what mere creature could have established everlasting righteousness Dan 9:

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

To establish this righteousness for a multitude of sinners that no man can number ! For though it was only through His Manhood which came through the virgin birth, that He became subject to the law and endured its penalty; for His Deity itself could not suffer and die or even be in subjection, however the word in being made flesh [virgin birth], was constituted both God and Man in One Person, in that His Deity in all the Fulness of Divine Attributes carried all its power and virtue into all that The Man Christ Jesus did and suffered, and by doing so, established perfect redemption from under the Law for His People and conquered death in their behalf. This only God could do.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:27 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Quote:
The Sabbath was not just for the Jews, but for all mankind which the Creator gave us.
Is this so, or is your conclusion based on human reasoning?

What was the reason Israel was told to observe the Sabbath? We are told.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

My ancestors did not come out of Egypt. We are also told this:

Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying , Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


My ancestors did not make covenant with God at Sinai.

It was not given to everyone. Some Gentiles took the vow at Sinai and became part of Israel. If they took the vow, you can argue they are bound by it; but most Gentiles didn't take that vow. Most Gentiles did not enter into that particular covenant with God.

Thus Paul was correct when he said Christians were not bound to keep any day; and the Apostles were right not to require it. That would have been imposing the Covenant at Sinai on people whose ancestors did not take the vow. Ask the next Rabbi you meet -- he will agree with Paul -- Gentiles have no need to observe the Sabbath.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:51 AM
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Hobie, good post on the deity of Jesus. The oneness of God in the administration of his offices both in Heaven and earth is difficult for some to believe or maybe understand. This is why in the book of Timothy the scripture states, Great is the mystery of Godliness..
God himself can appear as a million persons in a million places at one time and yet he is one both before and after. Jesus in his human form was the reflective person of God if we were to see him as a human person and he dwelt among us on a daily basis. Currently that human form has been glorified and is described in the book of revelation. We now know it is that same Jesus that will dwell with us either in heaven or here on earth.
The debate over the law of things concerning the sabbath I'll leave that to someone else. Myself having a day or two off to rest or do something that is relaxing is great as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin View Post
Hobie, good post on the deity of Jesus. The oneness of God in the administration of his offices both in Heaven and earth is difficult for some to believe or maybe understand. This is why in the book of Timothy the scripture states, Great is the mystery of Godliness..
God himself can appear as a million persons in a million places at one time and yet he is one both before and after. Jesus in his human form was the reflective person of God if we were to see him as a human person and he dwelt among us on a daily basis. Currently that human form has been glorified and is described in the book of revelation. We now know it is that same Jesus that will dwell with us either in heaven or here on earth.
The debate over the law of things concerning the sabbath I'll leave that to someone else. Myself having a day or two off to rest or do something that is relaxing is great as far as I'm concerned.
And when the Spirit gives us a moment to reflect on Jesus or God or our church or indeed ourselves by the way of Godliness that is like a crack in the sky and light shining through the darkness that our flesh has to inhabit.
A barometer check.
It is a moment, like being taken up and rested in love that isn't here but should be but will be because it always has been and always will be from the beginning to the end, being brought down.
Oh to be taken up.
Sigh!

you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[d]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

[d] Or vindicated in spirit
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  #6  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:57 AM
Israel's Avatar
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobie View Post
Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day”, but the fullness of that statement needs to be understood by understanding who Jesus was.


“For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus was, in reality, revealing that He Himself was the One who originally made Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. The New Testament is very clear that Jesus Christ is not just our Savior, but is also our Creator. Notice carefully:

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made. John 1:3

He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. John 1:10

God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. Eph. 3:9 KJV

For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Col. 1:16

Thus Jesus Christ is our Creator. The One who created, rested. Thus the Sabbath commandment, when correctly understood in the light of both the Old and New Testaments, points to Jesus Christ

Now some may say but God the great Jehovah created the earth in the beginning, but here is were the mystery of the Trinity has to be understood in order to understand who Jesus was.

Jesus is the Jehovah of ALL the Bible. He is the LORD Jehovah that walked in the cool of the day in Eden. Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was Jehovah God who gave the Ten Commandments. Jesus was Jehovah God who was in the pillar of fire by night and cloud by day. Jesus was Jehovah God who appeared to Moses in the fiery bush and declared I am that I am.

Jesus’ Claims About Himself - John 8 (New International Version)
48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus.

Lets look at this story of Moses and the Burning Bush.

“14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” (Ex 3:14-15 )

Now scripture shows us even more clearly who Christ is, if we just let the Holy Spirit guide us into truth.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST
Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Now lets look at who is the Savior:

“ I, even I, am the LORD ; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isa 43:11 )

“ Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” (Isa 45:21 )

“ Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” (** 13:4 )

“ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;” (1Ti 1:1 )

“ But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” (2Pe 3:18 )

“ For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:” (Php 3:20 AV)


Jesus is truly the Creator, Jehovah, the First and the Last, our Saviour and Lord of the Sabbath. It is His day of worship from Creation, the day of rest, made for man not man for the Sabbath..

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

The Sabbath was not just for the Jews, but for all mankind which the Creator gave us.
Amen Hobie, my fellow Kinsman in Christ.

Good understanding, and also let it be known that the scripture says that Christ (the anointed one), has come in his fathers name.

# John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

# John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Therefore if Christ which is a title, who comes in his fathers name, then what is the fathers name the Christ came in? It is Jesus, which is the fathers name. When Christ came in the flesh, he came baring the fathers name, which was given to him from heaven by the angel telling his earthly parents as it pertains to the flesh what his name shall be.

Likewise, Christ, who comes in the name of father, which is Jesus (in English), is also one with the Father.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

If the father is one with Christ, and Christ one with the father, who are we also one with?

St. John 17: 19-24

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


The prayer of Christ Jesus is that we also be one with him and the father even as they also are one. How powerful. If one could only understand the fullness of this in Christ, then the power of God will be complete in one that understands this fully.

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

If Christ is in us, then the father likewise is in us. Those that are lead by the spirit, then both the first begotten, and the father are one with the person, making them sons of God, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

If Christ is in us, then his Glory of the father is in us also. How powerful.

As for there Sabbath, there remains a rest for the Children of God, for God rested from his works from the beginning on the Seventh day (Sabbath day).

Hebrews 4:1-11

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4 is the conclusion of the matter concerning the Sabbath, therefore let is keep, and rest in the Sabbath on the seventh day even as God has rested from his work.

Now man is not made for the sabbath but the sabbath made for man.

Mark 2: 27-28

27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Let it be also know that the sabbath is on the Seventh day, not being Sunday or Saturday, but the days are number. If we are students of the bible, then we should all understand that there is not a day named in scripture but they are numbered.

Therefore let us not argue about if the sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday, for names of days are names given by man. The Sabbath is numbered as being the seventh day.

The question is the the Sabbath is the Seventh day from what?

God gave us tools to use to count the days as it says in Genesis.

Genesis 1: 14-18

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

As confirmed in scripture God has given us tools to us to count time. We do not need mans system to count time. When the sun goes down that starts the new day, not at midnight. At sundown on this day, be it what ever time the sun goes down, it is the start of a new day. There fore the sun is the authority over the counting of the days.

Likewise the moon has a cycle of 28 days that it gives light. Notice that 28 is perfectly divisible by 7, which gives you 4 weeks, which gives you 4 Sabbaths within four weeks. The lunar cycle is what God has given for us to count the months. When the new moon comes in it comes in as a thin crescent, being visible by the eye, which starts the new month.

As the month goes on the Crescent begins to wax (get bigger) on the seventh day from the new moon (day 1) the moon will be half. As the the moon waxes on from the seventh day it keeps showing more light. On the 14th day from the new moon (day 1) the moon will be full. When the moon is full it is the middle of the month. With this understanding of how the lunar cycle flows, when can count time, regarding the day of the month as one experience grows in doing so.

After the moon is full, it starts to ween (lose light). One the 21 day from the new moon (day 1), the moon will go back to show half a moon (half light). Only this time it will be showing half on the opposite side of when it was waxing to be full. As the the month goes on, when day 28 is reached the moon returns to a then crescent, which is the last day that the moon is visible to the eye.

From that point you will have a day or day and 1 half where the moon gives no light. The days that he moon gives no light are counted as part of the month, that has just ended, but not counted towards the next Sabbath.

When the Crescent Moon appears again, then the cycle starts over. Moon and month have the same definition, as far is time counting is concerned.

According the new moon, the Sabbath will fall on the 7th day, 14th day, 21st day, and 28th day from the new moon, no matter what man names those days, for the naming of those days are not important as far as keeping the Sabbath.

Dictionary.com

Origin:
before 900; Middle English mone, Old English mōna; cognate with Old High German māno, Old Norse māni, Gothic mena; akin to German Mond moon, Latin mēnsis month, Greek mḗnē moon, Sanskrit māsa moon, month

World English Dictionary
moon (muːn) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1. ( sometimes capital ) the natural satellite of the earth. Diameter: 3476 km; mass: 7.35 × 10 22 kg; mean distance from earth: 384 400 km; periods of rotation and revolution: 27.32 daysRelated: lunar
2. the face of the moon as it is seen during its revolution around the earth, esp at one of its phases: new moon ; full moon
3. any natural satellite of a planet
4. moonlight; moonshine
5. something resembling a moon
6. a month, esp a lunar one
7. once in a blue moon very seldom
8. informal over the moon extremely happy; ecstatic
9. reach for the moon to desire or attempt something unattainable or difficult to obtain

If we look at Israel on how they originally keep the sabbath even in Davids time, it was according to the new moon, and not the naming of days of the week. Some will say that this is keeping a floating Sabbath, but in truth its just being obedient to what was given to count time.

Man on the other hand has changed times and laws, which is why we have a calender system, which is a Gregorian (after Pope Gregory the 13th) Calender system, derived from a Julian (name under the authority of Julius Caesar) Calender system.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


If one wants to understand the history on who counted the Sabbath from the moon was lost, one could read the History of the Jews, by Josephis, which there are other books that also gives this understanding.

If we read the story about David and Jonathan (son of King Saul), one would see that they were counting there Sabbath bases from the new moon.

1 Samuel 20: 1-5,18,24-27

1And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what is mine iniquity? and what is my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life?
2And he said unto him, God forbid; thou shalt not die: behold, my father will do nothing either great or small, but that he will shew it me: and why should my father hide this thing from me? it is not so.
3And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death.
4Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee.
5And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

18Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.

24So David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat.
25And the king sat upon his seat, as at other times, even upon a seat by the wall: and Jonathan arose, and Abner sat by Saul's side, and David's place was empty.
26Nevertheless Saul spake not any thing that day: for he thought, Something hath befallen him, he is not clean; surely he is not clean.
27And it came to pass on the morrow, which was the second day of the month, that David's place was empty: and Saul said unto Jonathan his son, Wherefore cometh not the son of Jesse to meat, neither yesterday, nor to day?


Now even if one does not believe that they have to keep the sabbath today, it is clear in these scriptures above that the Sabbath was counted from the new moon, and there was not a name given to the days, and the only name given was given to the seventh day, which is the Sabbath day.

If we read and understand history we will also understand that as Israel had gone into captivity, the sabbath and the feast days, where often not kept. Neither when Israel was not in captivity, because of the wickedness of there hearts they perverted the Sabbath in their sins, therefore God didn't honor it.

If we look at when God sent a prophet to Israel, we will often see how the Sabbath was re-instituted.

When Israel had gone into captivity under the Roman empire prior to 70 Ad. when Jerusalem was destroyed, after that history shows that Israel keep its feast days, and Sabbath days according to the new moon (lunar cycle) in secret, for fear of losing there life, because of the bondage of the Romans. Openly they were allowed to keep their Sabbaths according to the way Roman had instituted its calender, even to this very day.

Today both the orthodox Jews, and the Messianic Jews, and other Hebrew Israelite sects, keep their feast days according to a lunar cycle (new Moon), but there weekly Sabbaths are still kept as they kept them in captivity being according to the roman calender system (Gregorian Calender), being on Saturday (mans name for the seventh day of the week according to mans counting system)

Now we have those that argue about the sabbath. Some say that it is on Saturday, some say on Sunday, some say does it really matter, Some say everyday is the Sabbath, and some dare not to bother.

In truth there still remains a rest for the Children of God, as God rested from his works. Now I could go into the spiritual application which is far more important then the physical keeping the Sabbath, but for now I will not.

I will say this, either if you keep the sabbath on Saturday, Sunday, or according to the new moon, if your heart is not right, not being a Circumcised heart, then the keeping of the Sabbath and the Feast days is in vain, and is just a ritual.

That was the problem with physical Israel back in the day, for their hearts were not circumcised, meaning they didn't walk being obedient to the word of God as a nation, but wanted to be like the other nations.

Last edited by Israel : 06-30-2011 at 09:30 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:00 AM
Israel's Avatar
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Is this so, or is your conclusion based on human reasoning?

What was the reason Israel was told to observe the Sabbath? We are told.

Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

My ancestors did not come out of Egypt. We are also told this:

Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying , Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


My ancestors did not make covenant with God at Sinai.

It was not given to everyone. Some Gentiles took the vow at Sinai and became part of Israel. If they took the vow, you can argue they are bound by it; but most Gentiles didn't take that vow. Most Gentiles did not enter into that particular covenant with God.

Thus Paul was correct when he said Christians were not bound to keep any day; and the Apostles were right not to require it. That would have been imposing the Covenant at Sinai on people whose ancestors did not take the vow. Ask the next Rabbi you meet -- he will agree with Paul -- Gentiles have no need to observe the Sabbath.
Human reasoning is often times the reason why one doesn't want to see truth, but continue in on going questions, which only leads to blindness, and ones previsions to walk in they that one wants to walk, making there own path of obedience out of disobedience.

What was the reason Israel was told to observe the Sabbath?

Let us not forget that the keeping of the Sabbath was part of the Commandments. Now if we are to say that one doesn't have to keep the Sabbath and others do, then the commandments are partial in its authority, which we know that God is no respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Whatsoever it is that is commanded by God, all that will partake, being members of the Household of God, walk the same. There is not a different set of commandments for the so-called Jews being different from the so-called gentiles, for there is no difference.

Romans 10: 11-13

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So know we all, be it by nature that we are Jews, Greeks, Gentiles, bond, or free, we all must keep the commandments of God.

I John 2: 3-8

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

Therefore as children of God, through Christ we are to keep the commandments, for the love of God is manifested through his Children by the keeping of his commandments.

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 5:2
2.By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


Now let it be know that we all must keep the commandments, no matter whom it is we are physically.

Therefore the commandments are for all, now let us keep them by faith, being obedient to the law of the spirit, which shall make you free from the law of sin and death, which are for those that are disobedient.

Exodus 20: 8-11

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


For those that do not keep his commandments the law was added. Some will say what do you mean the law was added, for they believe the law is the commandments in error. Well the law is for the lawless, and it was added because of transgression.

1 Timothy 1:9 -10
9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


So what law was for these that are lawless? Is the commandments for the lawless? Let us see.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


It is clear that the law was added for disobedience of not keeping the commandments. The law that was added was the law of sin and death, which was the law of animal sacrifice, which the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin, but it was the schoolmaster for Christ, being that Christ is a better sacrifice, and by him living in you your conscious can be changed.

Most don't understand that there is commandments, and there are laws of the commandments.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Christ didn't take away the commandments, but he had taken away the law of commandments, which is the law of sin and death which pertains to those that are disobedient being sinners. Because know we are obedient to God, in keeping his commandments and every word, he has forgiven us of our trespass (our sins), which is punishable by death, which is the law of sin.

Now if we keep the law of the spirit, which is obedience to Gods every word, even the commandments, then we are free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Was not Christ obedient to the commandments? Was not his obedience the patter for us to follow? If it so be the pattern is not that pattern the law that we must follow for the kingdom to be in us, and for us to be sons of God, even as he is the first begotten? For the law of the spirit in Christ is obedience.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Because of obedience which is the law of the spirit, we are no longer guilty of being transgressors/sinners, for now we no longer walk after sin to serve sin, but we walk after the spirit, which has set us free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The law that was weak through the flesh, was not the commandments, but it was the penalty, for the penalty being the animal sacrifices, didn't change the conscious, stopping one from sinning, which is why Christ came to be the sacrifice, and for you to be covered under his blood in your obedience, just as those that were in Egypt when God commanded that Israel put the blood over the door post, so that the angel of death would passover them.

If they were obedient to the instruction, then they put the blood of the lamb over the door, and because of there obedience to the commandment, the angel of death would not visit there household.

If they were disobedient and didn't put the blood over the door post, then they didn't keep the commandment that was given, and the angel of death did visit them taking their first born.

Likewise today, if we are obedient and keep Gods commandments, then spiritually speaking the blood of Christ is covering us, just as the example left to us from when the commandment was given to put the blood over the door post in Egypt.

The same obedience is required today, and if we are obedient then we are cover by Christ blood, not needing the blood of lambs, bulls and goats, for we are covered by the blood of Christ by is one death.

Now that we are covered let us not go back into disobedience rebuilding the patter of things we left from, but let us move forward in the spirit.

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the Law is obedience.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

If we are truthful it is the flesh, that doesn't want to submit to God, in keeping the commandments. It is the flesh that wants a different set of rules to apply to them. For because of the fleshly desire, one will believe what he or she wants to a be truth for them in practice, so that they can do as they will, an call it the will of God.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


If ye do not have the spirit of Christ, one will not keep the commandments.

All this I have regarding the law and commandment is connected to the sabbath because the Sabbath was given by commandment (law of the spirit), and not the penalty for sin which is the law of sin and death.

There are two laws that all must under stand.

Galatians 2: 19

19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Through what law, is one dead to what law, that you may live unto God which is eternal life?

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Basically Obedience will make you free from the punishment of disobedience, which is death by sin.


10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We can go into the new testament and look at How the apostle, even Paul kept the Sabbath, and the Feast days, but I will rest hear. Why else would the apostles be in one accord on Pentecost, why else was it needful for Paul to be in Jerusalem on Pentecost? If they were keeping the feast, let us not be ignorant and believe that they were not keeping the Sabbath as well.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:37 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

^ Israel was expected to observe the 613 laws given through Moses. Gentiles were expected to observe the laws given to all mankind; all of Noah's descendants know, through their consciences, that these things are wrong.

That was the Jewish position then and remains the Jewish position now; and it is the same position Paul took when he said the laws of Moses did not apply to Gentiles. That is the same position the Apostles took. No matter whether they observed the Sabbath or not, they did not tell Gentiles they had to keep it. You know the passages. If you research the Noahide Covenant, you will find it's very close to what the Apostles said about Gentile converts.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:01 PM
Israel's Avatar
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
^ Israel was expected to observe the 613 laws given through Moses. Gentiles were expected to observe the laws given to all mankind; all of Noah's descendants know, through their consciences, that these things are wrong.

That was the Jewish position then and remains the Jewish position now; and it is the same position Paul took when he said the laws of Moses did not apply to Gentiles. That is the same position the Apostles took. No matter whether they observed the Sabbath or not, they did not tell Gentiles they had to keep it. You know the passages. If you research the Noahide Covenant, you will find it's very close to what the Apostles said about Gentile converts.
The law is the thing that is the issue, that is why we must understand the difference between the law and the commandments, for the law is no more for those that are obedient.

The problem is that many call the commandments the law in error, for the law was added because of the transgression of the commandments until the seed should come, being Christ, being the time of reformation.

The time of reformation is the time that your conscious is reformed, made new through faith. And by faith, are we now obedient. Those that lack faith lack obedience.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now if the law was added because of transgress, what was transgressed against but the commandments of God? For the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin, which was the law (penalty for sin).

Because of transgression the law was added for the law was for the lawless. You know the Scripture that says the law is for the lawless.

For law (punishment) is not made for a righteous man, but for sinners. Sinners are those that do not keep the commandments, being not lead by the spirit of God.

Those that are lead by the spirit, walk by faith, therefore keep the commandments, which sets them free from the penalty (law of sin and death).

Again.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Now if the law was only for the Jews or Israelites, who is this scripture talking about below:

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What law does one inwardly as a Jew keep, but the law of the spirit, which is obedience to every word of God.

Matthew 4: 4

4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Who are the saints, and what is the patience as saints.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So are we not commanded to keep the commandments of God, by faith which is the obedience that Christ had, which is present in all those that will be heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ?
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  #10  
Old 06-30-2011, 12:45 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Understanding who Jesus was, the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Which law? The laws of Moses was given when Israel would not hear the Voice of God. Remember they asked Moses to go away because they were frightened?

The Written Torah was given as a substitute for the Torah Or, the Law of Light.
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