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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > A Problem to solve in Christian theology

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  #1  
Old 06-19-2011, 12:43 PM
JohnZain
 
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Default A Problem to solve in Christian theology

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was “fully God”
Isaiah 7:14 ”Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”
Matthew 1:23 ”they shall call His name Immanuel, which when translated means ‘God with us’.”
Isaiah 9:6 ”… a Son will be given to us … His name will be called … Mighty God …”
Revelation 19:5 ”… and His (Jesus) name was called the Word of God.”
John 1:1,14 ”… the Word (Jesus) was God. … And the Word became flesh …”
1 Timothy 3:16 ”God was manifested in the flesh …”
2 Corinthians 4:4 “Christ, who is the image of God”
Hebrews 1:3 “the express image of His (God’s) person” or “the exact representation of His nature”
Philippians 2:6 “Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God …”
Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God”
Colossians 1:19 “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell”
Colossians 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”
John 5:18 “He … said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”
John 8:24 “… if you do not believe that I AM (i.e. God), you will die in your sins.”
John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”
John 10:33 “… blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:9 “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”
Romans 9:5 “Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”
Titus 2:13 “… our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”
1 John 5:20 “… His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
The Creator: John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Acts 3:15
The Sustainer (now) of all things: Colossian 1:17, Hebrews 1:3
The Giver of eternal life: John 4:14, 5:21, 6:27, 10:27-28, 11:25, 14:6, 17:2; Heb. 5:9; 1 John 1:1-2

But, Jesus depended on Father God’s words, instructions, etc.
John 3:22 “And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies …”
Do verses such as 3:22 refer to Jesus in heaven? or Jesus on earth in prayer?
John 8:26 “… I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
John 8:28 “… I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.”
John 8:40 “… a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”
John 10:18 “This command I have received from My Father.”
John 14:31 “… and as My Father gave Me commandment, so I do.”
John 15:15 “… for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.”

And, Jesus depended on the Holy Spirit’s power to perform miracles
Matthew 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God …”
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel
to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)”
Luke 5:17 “… He (Jesus) was teaching … And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.”
Acts 10:38 “… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

How are we to tell the world that Jesus is “fully God” when we are confronted with these verses above?
So far, I have heard 2 explanations:
1) Things like the Trinity are beyond man’s comprehension
2) Jesus relied on Father God and the Holy Spirit as an example for us (i.e. how we should live)
But, I'm not entirely satisfied with either of these. How about you?

Last edited by JohnZain : 06-20-2011 at 05:43 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-19-2011, 02:46 PM
alphaomega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZain View Post
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was “fully God”

But, Jesus depended on Father God’s words, instructions, etc.
John 3:22 “And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies …”
Do verses such as 3:22 refer to Jesus in heaven? or Jesus on earth in prayer?
John 8:26 “… I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
John 8:28 “… I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.”
John 8:40 “… a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”
John 10:18 “This command I have received from My Father.”
John 14:31 “… and as My Father gave Me commandment, so I do.”
John 15:15 “… for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.”

And, Jesus depended on the Holy Spirit’s power to perform miracles
Matthew 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God …”
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel
to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)”
Luke 5:17 “… He (Jesus) was teaching … And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.”
Acts 10:38 “… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

How are we to tell the world that Jesus is “fully God” when we are confronted with these verses above?
So far, I have heard 2 explanations:
1) Things like the Trinity are beyond man’s comprehension
2) Jesus relied on Father God and the Holy Spirit as an example for us (i.e. how we should live)
But, I'm not entirely satisfied with either of these. How about you?
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was “fully God”

But, Jesus depended on Father God’s words, instructions, etc.
John 3:22 “And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies …”
Do verses such as 3:22 refer to Jesus in heaven? or Jesus on earth in prayer?
John 8:26 “… I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
John 8:28 “… I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.”
John 8:40 “… a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”
John 10:18 “This command I have received from My Father.”
John 14:31 “… and as My Father gave Me commandment, so I do.”
John 15:15 “… for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.”

JESUS; AS SON OF MAN WAS DEPENDANT (“?” KNEW OF) UPON GOD’S WORD
I SPEAK AS SON OF MAN THAT WHICH I HEARD
I AS SON OF MAN DO NOTHING
ETC --- THIS IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND; BUT JESUS PLAYS OUT BOTH ROLES FOR US -
Jesus relied on Father God and the Holy Spirit as an example for us---“NOT” (i.e. how we should live)
THAT OF “SON OF MAN” AND OF “SON OF GOD “ ( WHICH IS HE WHO IS NOT CREATED ; BUT CREATOR OF ALL THAT WAS CREATED) And, Jesus depended on the Holy Spirit’s power to perform miracles

Matthew 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God …”
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel
to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)”
Luke 5:17 “… He (Jesus) was teaching … And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.”
Acts 10:38 “… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about “doing good” and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” NO MAN IS GOOD; ONLY GOD

How are we to tell the world that Jesus is “fully God” when we are confronted with these verses above?
So far, I have heard 2 explanations:
1) Things like the Trinity are beyond man’s comprehension---NO ; BUT NIETHER ARE THEY A QUICK CONVERSATION 2) Jesus relied on Father God and the Holy Spirit as an example for us (i.e. how we should live)
But, I'm not entirely satisfied with either of these. How about you?

OK; THEY MY START ON THE SUBJECT
IF YOU WISH ; COMMENT AND I’LL TRY AND FILL IN THE HOLES



PS ; GOOD POST ; GOOD QUESTIONS
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  #3  
Old 06-19-2011, 03:36 PM
Dwaine
 
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Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

The concept of the Holy trinity can be confusing,but its not that difficult to understand.Here is how it was taught to me.If you have a pot of coffee and you pour it into 2 seperate cups,you now have 3 containers with the same beverage.The original pot represents God,while the two smaller cups symbolize Jesus and The Holy Spirit.It sounds wierd,but if you think about it ,it makes sense.
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  #4  
Old 06-19-2011, 03:51 PM
Maizie's Avatar
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Posts: 3,443
Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

What if the ony way you could fully correspond with someone you love was to become like them, wouldn't you do it? Didn't Paul do this? Didn't he become whatever he needed to be in order to "meet the need"?

The missionaries who go to other countries, don't they learn languages, learn customs and basically empty themselves of their "origins" in order to "meet the need" in those to whom they minister?
1 Corinthians 9:19-23

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

God did this in a much larger way so not only did God provide the Lamb but He also came in a way we could understand.


How many times do we say of someone who has great wealth, "They don't know what it is like to have to do such and such because they have alot of money"? Well, God emptied Himself so no man can ever accuse God of being unfair or unjust (not knowing what itis like.)
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  #5  
Old 06-19-2011, 04:15 PM
alphaomega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwaine View Post
The concept of the Holy trinity can be confusing,but its not that difficult to understand.Here is how it was taught to me.If you have a pot of coffee and you pour it into 2 seperate cups,you now have 3 containers with the same beverage.The original pot represents God,while the two smaller cups symbolize Jesus and The Holy Spirit.It sounds wierd,but if you think about it ,it makes sense.
exactly;

what you have just shown
is also seen with the water in genesis one


the water -----------> becomes
--------------------------------------- a drink offering ;
--------------------------------------- poured out ;
---------------------------------------- * water above the firmament


-------------------- and


------------------------------------------- land
-------------------------------------------- ~~~
-------------------------------------------- water
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  #6  
Old 06-19-2011, 04:24 PM
Linsinbigler's Avatar
Representative Clergy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,150
Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZain View Post
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was “fully God”

But, Jesus depended on Father God’s words, instructions, etc.
John 3:22 “And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies …”
Do verses such as 3:22 refer to Jesus in heaven? or Jesus on earth in prayer?
John 8:26 “… I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
John 8:28 “… I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.”
John 8:40 “… a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”
John 10:18 “This command I have received from My Father.”
John 14:31 “… and as My Father gave Me commandment, so I do.”
John 15:15 “… for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.”

And, Jesus depended on the Holy Spirit’s power to perform miracles
Matthew 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God …”
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel
to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives (of Satan)
and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed (by demons)”
Luke 5:17 “… He (Jesus) was teaching … And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.”
Acts 10:38 “… how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

How are we to tell the world that Jesus is “fully God” when we are confronted with these verses above?
So far, I have heard 2 explanations:
1) Things like the Trinity are beyond man’s comprehension
2) Jesus relied on Father God and the Holy Spirit as an example for us (i.e. how we should live)
But, I'm not entirely satisfied with either of these. How about you?
This is because you are stuck in western theology. Come east, it is much easier to understand. The Father is the Arche, Source and Cause of the Holy Trinity, its fountainhead. They equally share the divine essence, but that does not make them hypostatically without order.
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2011, 04:43 PM
Loretohouse's Avatar
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Posts: 534
Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
This is because you are stuck in western theology. Come east, it is much easier to understand. The Father is the Arche, Source and Cause of the Holy Trinity, its fountainhead. They equally share the divine essence, but that does not make them hypostatically without order.
At Mass today my Priest was talking about our limited ability to truly comprehend the mystery of the Trinity and how there are not three Gods but one God with three parts so to speak. How can they co exist? Our minds have a hard time with that but it is a fact and a mystery. We will understand in eternity.

I understand that the mystery of the Trinity is not accepted by many denominations.
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  #8  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:15 PM
Selene's Avatar
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Posts: 1,084
Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

I try to understand the Holy Trinity by using the example of water. Water can take three forms - liquid, ice, and vapor. Despite what form it is in, all three have the exact same composition. All three forms have two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen.

However, despite that all three have the exact same composition, all three are also different in that they have different densities. Ice has a lighter density than liquid water, which explains why ice floats in liquid water. Vapor has an even lighter density.

All three forms of water can actually exist at one time. This is what we call the "Triple Point." The triple point of any substance is that temperature and pressure at which the material can coexist in all three phases (solid, liquid and gas) in equilibrium. Specifically the triple point of water is 273.16 K at 611.2 Pa.

I guess the Holy Trinity would be something similiar to that. All three are one and exist as one God; yet, all three are also different in that one is the Father, the other is the eternal begotten Son, and the third is the Holy Spirit.
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  #9  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:33 PM
Maizie's Avatar
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Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

Well man has three parts but it is still only one man. This is how I taught my children.

The Flesh
The Soul
The Spirit

Three in one. God is three in one. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit but one God.
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  #10  
Old 06-19-2011, 07:58 PM
Linsinbigler's Avatar
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Default Re: A Problem to solve in Christian theology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretohouse View Post
I understand that the mystery of the Trinity is not accepted by many denominations.
True. I believe the statistics are that approximately 9% of those who consider themselves Christian worldwide do not believe in the Trinity.
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