True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:08 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

One of the prominent errors of our day, is the ethnic jews are God's chosen people. Thats never been the case, God has only One Chosen People, and they all were Chosen in the Chosen, the Lord Jesus Christ before the foundation eph 1:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And of course the bible Teaches that He is the Chosen of God 1 pet 2:4

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

Now to prove this point, that National Israel jews were not God's Chosen People, except for a remnant, we will look at rom 11:


7 What then? Israel[National Israel] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You see that ? The election hath obtained it ,in lieu of the Nation as a whole !

The word for election is the greek word eklogē:


the act of picking out, choosing

a) of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone

2) a thing or person chosen

a) of persons: God's elect

The word is used as chosen here in acts 9:

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

So rom 11 7 can read:

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the chosen hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Folks what can be plainer that the Nation itself was not the Chosen of God, but a remnant of that nation was ?

So to say that the Nation of Israel, the Physical nation of people are or ever were God's Chosen People is not true to scripture.

Its always only been a small remnant [of spiritual Israel, people of Faith] who were God's Chosen People in that Nation i.e isa 1:

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

And as Paul states in Rom 11 7 the remnant did receive of the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, but they were received through the Gospel of Christ, whom they had been Chosen in before the foundation of the world. The foreknown People of God..

So rom 11 7 informs us that the Nation of Israel, that has been blinded, were not the chosen of God..
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:21 AM
Giuliano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post

So rom 11 7 informs us that the Nation of Israel, that has been blinded, were not the chosen of God..
This is a distortion of Romans 11. Paul says that although Israel was blinded and removed from the olive tree, they would be grafted back in. All Israel will be saved.


Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-08-2011, 11:28 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

Quote:
This is a distortion of Romans 11. Paul says that although Israel was blinded and removed from the olive tree, they would be grafted back in. All Israel will be saved.
I am quoting the scripture, anyone should be able to see that in rom 11 7 the chosen of God in Israel were different from the Nation as a whole. The election in the nation , not the nation, were the chosen and the True Israel of God.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-08-2011, 11:29 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

giu:

Quote:
All Israel will be saved.
Thats True, but thats not National Israel, thats all the election of both jew and gentile.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-08-2011, 08:20 PM
Giuliano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
I am quoting the scripture, anyone should be able to see that in rom 11 7 the chosen of God in Israel were different from the Nation as a whole. The election in the nation , not the nation, were the chosen and the True Israel of God.
Read the chapter again. The Gentiles are called "wild" branches which are grafted in; and some of the Jews are said to be "natural" branches which are cut off but grafted back on.

I know this doesn't fit in with your views of how "election" works, but it's what Paul says. Maybe your definition of "election" needs some fine tuning?

At Sinai, the people of Israel took a vow. All the people of Israel, after Sinai, included those born as descendants of Israel and Gentiles who had left Egypt with Moses. The Gentiles added were not part of the original "souls of Israel" which had been part of Adam, whose names were in the Book of Life -- they were added at Sinai.

All the people of Sinai also included the souls of those not in physical bodies -- those who were not standing there that day (Dt. 29:10-15). Now all but two of those then in the flesh died without entering the Land of Promise. Was God finished with them? Was His covenant with them in vain? No. And Paul says God is still not finished them after so many rejected Jesus. All Israel will be saved, and that includes the hundreds of thousands who perished in the wilderness; and it includes those blinded in the time of Jesus.

It is true, however, that by forming irregular marriages the souls of the seed of the serpent entered Israel. In the days of Nehemiah, we read about how the priesthood was purged of its irregular marriages. If a Jew married a pagan woman who was not a believer, the children of that union would not be Jewish.

What you are not dealing with is the fact that Paul says the "natural" branches can be cut off but they also will be grafted back in. This puts a wrinkle in your idea about the names in the Book of Life since you assume names cannot be added or expunged; but I remind you that Moses offered to have his name removed.

Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


What is true is that the "original" Israel, those whose souls were part of Adam in Eden, will all be saved. It is impossible that any of them should not be saved. That's 288,000 souls -- half of them male and half female -- for the total of 144,000 "male virgins" who are neither male nor female. Those souls were "not of this world."
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-09-2011, 02:46 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

giu:

Quote:
Read the chapter again.
lol, you need to first understand rom 11:7
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-09-2011, 08:16 AM
Giuliano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
giu:

lol, you need to first understand rom 11:7
I think I do understand it. Some of Israel was blinded on purpose so that the Gentiles might enter in. Let us go verse by verse:

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

What would have happened to the world if all Israel had been saved at Sinai and taken out of the world? The world would have been left empty of righteous souls. Therefore, some were elected or chosen to achieve perfection and be taken out of the world while others were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Yes, we ARE talking about the souls of Israel here. And don't forget that Paul says "all Israel" will be saved. That being said, we see that some were blinded.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.


Do not read this to mean that they are damned. No, it is merely stating what would happen to them, just as it was predicted that Abraham's children would go into slavery in Egypt.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

If you are reading verse 7 to mean that they fell for all eternity, do not think that. It is not so. They did fall in one way; but in another way, they did not fall. Is that not clear here when Paul first says they didn't fall but then says that through their fall, salvation is come to Gentiles?

Is it not written that the just will fall seven times?

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Returning to Romans now:

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


Paul is clear here. The Gentiles are NOT part of the original Israel. The Gentiles are "wild" while the Jews are "natural" branches. Some of the natural branches have been broken off and some wild ones grafted in.

I understand that very clearly.

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Are you boasting against the (natural) branches and the root?


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

You do seem boastful to me, as if you are saying you're in a better position than the souls of Israel who were broken off so you might be grafted in. Your imagination is busily inventing for you an idea that your name was in the Book of Life from the foundation of the earth while the souls of the "natural branches" were not.



20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Ah, but perhaps you do not believe you could be broken off? You think you have some guarantee that the souls of Israel did not have? That is being highminded in my view.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Does it get any clearer? Names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And names can be added back in. The souls which were part of the original Israel, from the foundation of the world, will all be added back in.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

A sensible approach if you ask me, telling us not to be arrogant and think God is a respecter of persons. The natural branches must all be added back in.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You look conceited to me, I must confess, and think yourself wise. Somehow you imagine you as a wild branch will find more favor with God than the natural branches.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


This does not say all Israel was saved at Sinai or would all be saved at the time of Jesus. It says that eventually all Israel will be saved.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Yes, even though blind, they are beloved. There is a reason for their being blind. It does not doom them. There is often a debate about Isaiah 53. Is the "suffering servant" Jesus or is it Israel? The answer is both.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This means that the natural branches though cut off must be grafted back in. Was the covenant at Sinai for nothing? So that all Israel except a few souls would perish in the wilderness? God forbid. All Israel will be saved.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed , that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


Isaiah 53 addresses this. Israel, being blinded, has been bruised for the iniquities of the Gentiles. If you can see how that prophecy is true in the life of Jesus, you should be able to see how it is also true for "all Israel."
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-09-2011, 08:56 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

gi:

Quote:
I think I do understand it.
If you did, then you would see that the election who hath obtained the promises, are different from the Nation of Israel as a whole who was blined. The election were the Chosen People of God within the Nation, but the Nation itself as a whole was not the Chosen People of God. You understand ?

Its the same as Paul writing in rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[election], which are of Israel[National]:
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-09-2011, 02:13 PM
Giuliano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
gi:
Why not be done with it and drop the salutation altogether. First it was giu, and now it's gi. Why not just forget it if you don't have the time to type my entire name?
Quote:
If you did, then you would see that the election who hath obtained the promises, are different from the Nation of Israel as a whole who was blined.
I saw that section which said some of Israel are elect and others are not. I did not see any reference whatsoever to "the Nation of Israel" being blinded. There are a few references to Israel as a "nation," but they are few. As a rule, "nations" means "peoples" and is used in the Bible to mean Gentiles.

Quote:
The election were the Chosen People of God within the Nation, but the Nation itself as a whole was not the Chosen People of God. You understand ?
I understand what the Bible says. I do not understand what you are saying. The Bible says all Israel will be saved. It does not say "the elect out of Israel" or "part of Israel."
Quote:
Its the same as Paul writing in rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[election], which are of Israel[National]:
Chapter nine of Romans is explaining that depending on genetics is not what defines Israel. Ask the next Rabbi you meet. He will most likely agree with Paul.

Ishmael was not the child of promise for two reasons. Hagar was a pagan at the time, not a believer; and Abraham had not yet "perfected" himself. A child born to a non-Jewish woman cannot be a Jew by birth but would have to convert.

When the Exodus took place, there were Gentiles among them. Yes, Egyptians left with them and converted. Moses was married to a Gentile who was a believer. One of the prophets was not an Israelite. The famous Rabbi Ahiva was a convert to Judaism.

Within Israel, improper marriages posed a problem. In the days of Zechariah, we see that even the sons of the High Priest had improper marriages. We see Solomon marrying pagan women. Their offspring, though partially Israel after the flesh, could not be the spiritual offspring of Abraham.

When Jesus called some religious leaders "son of the serpent," we can believe they were the result of improper marriages. To be a proper Jew, your mother has to be a proper Jew. If your father was Jewish and your mother was not, you are not a proper Jew.

This goes back to the war between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. While familial lineage is traced through the males, the spiritual status of the children is determined by the female side. That is the reason Isaac, the child of promise, was born to Sarah and not to Hagar. The children of Ishmael could be called "children of Abraham" but only after the flesh because Hagar was not a believer when she bore Ishmael.

When men of Israel married pagan women, they also introduced the seed of the serpent into Israel. Thus, not all which is called Israel after the flesh was truly Israel in the spiritual sense. When I say "all Israel" will be saved, I mean those who were were Israel in the spiritual sense and who were blinded and cut off but who will be grafted back on.

You have not dealt with this idea of the natural branches which are cut off and then grafted back on. You have chose instead to dwell on other details. I think it's time for you to address the question frankly. Why quibble with me over details about who is and who isn't Israel? Explain please those of Israel who are "natural" branches and who are cut off and blinded but then grafted back into the tree. All this other talk is ducking the issue.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-09-2011, 04:10 PM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: All Ethnic jews are not the Chosen people of God! -

giu:

Quote:
I saw that section which said some of Israel are elect and others are not.
Yes, but it appears that you do not understand who the are not is. Its the Nation in General..You see, the Nation cannot be chosen and the election chosen be the chosen at the same time..lol understand ?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Many Called, few chosen onegodonename Bible Chat 14 09-05-2009 10:39 AM
What does it mean-God's chosen people? peacebwithu Theology 6 08-29-2009 11:20 AM
How are Priests chosen ? danp Theology 40 07-30-2009 10:00 AM
Many are called but few are chosen Mysteryman Bible Chat 26 05-19-2009 06:03 PM
ethnic identity doinghiswill Culture & Recreation 6 04-26-2009 07:37 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:04 PM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29