True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-27-2011, 06:09 PM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-27-2011, 06:55 PM
Giuliano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.
Here is where we must understand the role of the Apostles. Jesus said he came to find his sheep; and in his prayer in the Gospel of John, he said he found them all. That means his work as "Shepherd" was done. He did not come in person to save the world himself.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


Jesus did not personally find either you or me. Someone else told us about him.


5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


So how many would you say this was? The 120 in the Upper Room? That's what I'd say. Jesus himself found only 120 sheep. That's how many received His Spirit on Pentecost. Yet he told his disciples elsewhere that they would do greater works than he.


7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


Here we have to remember that if others were to be saved by choosing rightly, his disciples would need to be preserved. It's like sending doctors and nurses to a plague area. If sick people are to be saved, the lives of the medical personnel must be protected first. If they die, they will not save anyone else. Jesus' job was done -- he said so -- since he did not come to this world to save it in person in his lifetime. He came to get the Apostles motivated and on track.

Note it: He did not come to save the world but SO THAT the world MIGHT be saved.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

We should not take the statements that say one thing to imply something else. When Jesus said he was not praying for the world, we should read that to mean he was indifferent to the world or that there were people who could not be saved. We are being told his first concern was the preservation of his own sheep, sheep which became in their turn shepherds after Jesus left this world in the physical flesh. We may still call him the "Good Shepherd," but on earth the role of "shepherd" was given to Peter.

We also should read John 17:4 narrowly when it says Jesus finished his work on earth. We should not believe salvation was impossible after this. That is true in a material manner. After this, his work would be done through his servants.

Am I making sense? Jesus still acts as the Light for every man, woman and child who is in this world.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If Jesus had stayed on the earth in a body of flesh, how many more could he have saved in person? It was necessary that he ascend to Heaven and then work after that through his Apostles. He said this:

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What greater works could there be than bringing salvation to the world?

Jesus came, we have seen, so that the world "might be saved." That does not mean he appears personally to anyone in the present age. That's not how we learn about him first. Someone must tell us first -- either in person or by reading books which were preserved by humans.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:15 PM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

gi:


Quote:
Note it: He did not come to save the world but SO THAT the world MIGHT be saved.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And that world He did save by His life..

The word might there does not mean what you think , like a possibilty might, but its stating a purpose, whenever the subjunctive mood is used with the purpose clause hina, the word that, its stating a purpose of God that will be fulfilled..

That world [ the Church] was given Life, spiritual life from Him jn 6:

33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The same Truth here :

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The world here means jew and gentile Sheep..
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:19 PM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

gi:

Quote:
When Jesus said he was not praying for the world, we should read that to mean he was indifferent to the world or that there were people who could not be saved.
Thats exactly what He meant. Thats why He did not pray for them, because He was not giving His life for them..only those the Father gave Him, those chosen in Him before the foundation..

Christ death and intercession go hand in hand rom 8:

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-28-2011, 12:50 AM
Moses
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Jesus said he came to find his sheep

Well lets be more accurate about what he said.

Jesus said :

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Who are the lost sheep of the House of Israel?
Well there are 2 houses one is of Israel and the other house is the house of Judah.

House of Israel was exiled and spread in the world 700 years BC.
Already new nations began from some of the 10 Northern tribes.

These who heard the Gospel heard the voice of their shepherd if they believed then they are the lost sheep to whom he came and to whom he send the Apostles..

Jesus said that his sheep know the voice of their Shepherd.

Last edited by Moses : 03-28-2011 at 12:52 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-28-2011, 07:08 AM
Selene's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,084
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.
Christ died for all sinners (everyone) regardless of whether they are His sheep or not. There is a difference between redemption and salvation. His death and resurrection brought redemption to all mankind because all have sins.

Romans 5:6 For why did Christ, when as yet we were weak, according to the time, die for the ungodly?

The "ungodly" would include even those who are not His sheep. Adam brought death into the world. Christ was the second Adam who brought redemption into the world. Salvation is a gift from God, and this gift is freely given to those who chose to receive His grace and Holy Spirit. And so, Christ sent His Apostles into the world to preach the Gospel so that all can come to know Him and receive this free gift of salvation. Those who accept this free gift are His sheep. Those who chose to reject the gift of salvation will not have eternal life.

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-28-2011, 09:48 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Unhappy Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

selene:

Quote:
Christ died for all sinners (everyone) regardless of whether they are His sheep or not.
There is no scripture that states that. Its best to be specific where the words of scripture are specific or we are presuming..

Quote:
Romans 5:6 For why did Christ, when as yet we were weak, according to the time, die for the ungodly?
Actually paul said that, and he was an elect, and yes, the elect are by nature ungodly..

Quote:
Romans 5:18-19 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just
These scriptures actually confirm limited atonement. Each Head by their acts caused certain effects to all those they represented.

Those who Christ represented [His Church] because scripture only teaches Him as the Head of the Church, not mankind in general, so by His act of obedience [his death phil 2:8] shall many be made righteous !

Now shall be made means Just that, they shall be made righteous. Why ? By the Obedience of ONE, not Two...all those Christ died for shall be made righteous..

Hence anyone not being made righteous, we conclude that Christ did not die for them, unless His death was made of non effect..
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-28-2011, 10:41 PM
Bloodwashed's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 219
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

I'll go with " Who so ever will may come". I've not seen much good fruit from the limited atonement crowd! Some have spun off into strange ideas about race. In His Love Mark!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-28-2011, 10:50 PM
Selene's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,084
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post

Actually paul said that, and he was an elect, and yes, the elect are by nature ungodly...
We are all ungodly because we are all sinners.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-29-2011, 12:38 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 419
Default Re: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selene View Post
We are all ungodly because we are all sinners.
Where did I deny that ? The scripture does not say He died for all the ungodly..He stated the ungodly, of which the elect are ungodly by nature..

Just like He came to save sinners, but not all sinners without exception, but those that have been chosen in Him before the foundation, and He actually saves them, not try to..
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jesus Christ was fully God and fully Man, and He actually died physically Felix Theology 11 04-15-2012 11:02 AM
The tent making myth cricketschirping General Discussions 35 03-07-2011 12:07 PM
Unto Him who is able to keep us from falling... just a myth? Gideon General Discussions 26 06-24-2010 09:14 PM
The miracles of Jesus Christ colin Theology 1 08-26-2009 10:18 PM
purgatory - a myth or reality? gruvEdude Bible Chat 7 11-19-2008 08:23 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 AM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29