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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > The Bible and practices in the RCC and EOC

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  #1  
Old 02-20-2011, 03:19 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
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Default The Bible and practices in the RCC and EOC

I'd like to discuss practices occuring in the RC and EO churches that are clearly described as abominations to God.

Examples are.

Idol worship/veneration

Icon worship/veneration

Relic worship/veneration

Consulting the dead

Authority in the church hierarchy

Copying the rituals of the heathen in general.

The Catholic Encyclopedia

"We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and in the rites paid to the dead.But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendour of religious ceremonial. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; they were common to almost all cults."


Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it:
thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

2Ki 17:15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them.

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen


Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
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  #2  
Old 02-20-2011, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Good morning[smile].
Ask people to define "cult", though, and you may get seven different answers from seven different people...or even several different answers from each of those different people[sympathetic smile].
It is said that a "cult" is simply "what other people do". All of the most common/powerful major world religions that we know of today started off once upon a time as some weirdo's "new cult".

Prehistoric men sitting around a fire talking...
"What do you know about those other people who just moved into the valley that our kids have been hanging around with lately? I heard that they don't worship the spirit of the Cave Bear and Fire like we do, but instead believe in some kind of weird 'Sun and Moon spirits', or something.
What's the world coming to? It ain't right I tell ya."

Instead of focusing on something as vague as "cults", narrow down your focus to harmful cults.
Look up a guide titled "Bonewit's Cult Evaluation" or "The Advanced Cult Danger Evaluation Frame". This is used by the F.B.I., so it should be good enough for your general needs in judging the threat of any cult that you encounter.
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  #3  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:15 AM
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I'd like to discuss practices occuring in the RC and EO churches that are clearly described as abominations to God.

Examples are.

Idol worship/veneration

Icon worship/veneration

Relic worship/veneration

Consulting the dead

Authority in the church hierarchy

Copying the rituals of the heathen in general.

The Catholic Encyclopedia

"We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and in the rites paid to the dead.But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendour of religious ceremonial. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; they were common to almost all cults."


Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it:
thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

2Ki 17:15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them.

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen


Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
You have been reading too many Chick publications and your question is clearly based on ignorance of what the Catholic Church and Orthodox actually teach. Go read the Catholic Catechism before you throw hand grenades.
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  #4  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:06 AM
Josiah
 
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I'd like to discuss practices occuring in the RC and EO churches that are clearly described as abominations to God.

Examples are.

Idol worship/veneration

Icon worship/veneration

Relic worship/veneration

Consulting the dead

Authority in the church hierarchy

Copying the rituals of the heathen in general.
I understand your point, and see SOME validity...

On the other hand....

1. I think some of these things are just often misunderstood by those observing. In my Catholic years, I NEVER "worshipped" (in the sense you mean) any "idols" or statues or Mary - and I NEVER witnessed anyone else do that either. Representative things CAN be respected (as Americans do our flag, or as Protestants do the Cross, for example) respecting what/who is being represented NOT the item per se.

2. I disagree that Catholics consult the dead. It's just not the case. While I eventually came to embrace the Protestant idea of not praying TO the saints (I STILL don't see this as an issue, however), OFFICIALLY anyway, the Saints are not "consulted" or "prayed TO" they are prayed THROUGH. Now, I agree with you. In my Catholic years, I heard LOTS of prayers made TO Mary with it clearly intended that MARY would answer the Prayer. Looking back, those things trouble me, too. But I'm just not clear about that - if it's examples of Catholics (including clergy) just taking this too far or of a spiritual "shorthand" as I call it (there's lots of that in Catholicism). But I DO think this (rather passionately) - there's nothing evil about this. Catholics do NOT replace Jesus with Mary. Some Catholics and sometimes modern Catholicism may go "too far" - I tend to agree - but I see nothing evil in all this. And I find it very SAD that way too many Protestants have come to ignore Her.

3. While a lot of our festivals and customs have pagan roots, my response: so what? They long, long, long ago lost any pagan meaning or signficance and thus are no longer pagan.

Just MY half cent. Just offering a little bit of counterpoint, while seeing some validity in what you posted.


Pax


- Josiah





.
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  #5  
Old 02-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Linsinbigler's Avatar
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

There is no such thing as worship/veneration.

Worship (latreia) is due to God alone
Veneration or honor (doulia) is honor: "give honor to whom honor is due." Not too unbiblical. If St. Paul states this of a pagan emperor, certainly it is true of the friends of God.
There is another term that is often translated veneration (proskynesis) that could either be applied to an act of EITHER worship (latreia) or honor (doulia).
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  #6  
Old 02-20-2011, 06:08 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I'd like to discuss practices occuring in the RC and EO churches that are clearly described as abominations to God.

Examples are.

Idol worship/veneration

Icon worship/veneration

Relic worship/veneration

Consulting the dead

Authority in the church hierarchy

Copying the rituals of the heathen in general.
You are worried? I thought you were worried about these things being stamped out by the Talmudic Zionists. You could join forces with the Talmudic Zionist conspiracy to behead all the idolaters. Should we chop off the heads of the Catholic and Orthodox?

Talmudic Zionist Noahide Laws Take Hold in U.S. & U.N.

I don't take either of these threads seriously. I think you're posting things just to be controversial.
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  #7  
Old 02-21-2011, 03:22 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMan View Post
Instead of focusing on something as vague as "cults", narrow down your focus to harmful cults.
I didnt mention cults. The Catholoic encyclopedia did.

I'm asking why the RCC imitate what THEY define as cultic practices.

Shall we talk about it?
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretohouse View Post
You have been reading too many Chick publications and your question is clearly based on ignorance of what the Catholic Church and Orthodox actually teach. Go read the Catholic Catechism before you throw hand grenades.
I dont know who this Chick guy is. If you want to bring forward evidence from catholic sources please do. I want to discuss this. Do you?
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
I understand your point, and see SOME validity...

On the other hand....

1. I think some of these things are just often misunderstood by those observing. In my Catholic years, I NEVER "worshipped" (in the sense you mean) any "idols" or statues or Mary - and I NEVER witnessed anyone else do that either. Representative things CAN be respected (as Americans do our flag, or as Protestants do the Cross, for example) respecting what/who is being represented NOT the item per se.
God doesnt just say dont worship idols/statues. He forbids EVEN BOWING DOWN TO THEM:

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

RCC and EOC bow down to statues, icons, and even MEN in reverence/worship/veneration. (whats the difference?)





Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
2. I disagree that Catholics consult the dead. It's just not the case. While I eventually came to embrace the Protestant idea of not praying TO the saints (I STILL don't see this as an issue, however), OFFICIALLY anyway, the Saints are not "consulted" or "prayed TO" they are prayed THROUGH. Now, I agree with you. In my Catholic years, I heard LOTS of prayers made TO Mary with it clearly intended that MARY would answer the Prayer. Looking back, those things trouble me, too. But I'm just not clear about that - if it's examples of Catholics (including clergy) just taking this too far or of a spiritual "shorthand" as I call it (there's lots of that in Catholicism). But I DO think this (rather passionately) - there's nothing evil about this. Catholics do NOT replace Jesus with Mary. Some Catholics and sometimes modern Catholicism may go "too far" - I tend to agree - but I see nothing evil in all this. And I find it very SAD that way too many Protestants have come to ignore Her.
I dont think people are evil for praying to saints, or Mary, or to the reposed members of their church. They are simply deceived if they think that their prayers are being heard.

Prayed THROUGH or prayed TO?? I'm afraid there is no distinction. You admit yourself that some catholics take this too far....children cannot make the distintion. It is therefore a faulty teaching to get them to pray to ANYONE other than God. We should stick to the bible. Gods Word. We are told to pray to God. Lets do that.

At the end of the day, people who pray to anyone other than God have no idea if those they pray to are truly alive in spirit. They cannot look into the hearts of any man and know for sure that they were TRUE believers.

They therefore risk necromancy. Consulting the dead. We are forbidden to do this. Why take the risk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
3. While a lot of our festivals and customs have pagan roots, my response: so what? They long, long, long ago lost any pagan meaning or signficance and thus are no longer pagan.
God says dont follow after what the heathen do. Does that mean we cant wear shoes coz the heathen did!? Of course not. It's about worship, and practices regarding faith. If God says that He doesnt like stuff, dont do it...unless its sanctioned by His Word. Pretty simple eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Just MY half cent. Just offering a little bit of counterpoint, while seeing some validity in what you posted.

Pax

- Josiah
.
Thanks for the input.
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Unbiblical Practices in the RCC and EOC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
There is no such thing as worship/veneration.

Worship (latreia) is due to God alone
Veneration or honor (doulia) is honor: "give honor to whom honor is due." Not too unbiblical. If St. Paul states this of a pagan emperor, certainly it is true of the friends of God.
There is another term that is often translated veneration (proskynesis) that could either be applied to an act of EITHER worship (latreia) or honor (doulia).
Can you tell me if your icons/relics/statues are HOLY or not? If so, who decides if they are Holy? What gives them that authority?

Are you sure children understand the complicated division between worship and veneration. Could it be that some maybe have it wrong and are in fact worshipping the icon itself rather than the object of the icon. Why are they bowing down to these things at all when God says not to?

Is there not an extreme risk of idol worship in all this. God says to not EVEN BOW DOWN to these things. Maybe that why He said that, becasue there is such a fine line between mans definitions.

Why risk it?

Can you address the OT scripture I posted?
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