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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Did Jesus ever joke?

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  #1  
Old 01-26-2011, 07:47 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default Did Jesus ever joke?

Not wishing to derail another thread, let me transfer posts here. I wrote:

Quote:
People say Jesus never joked. I find this amusing myself:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The word "think" always makes me laugh. The irony is they really thought that and had already searched the scriptures. When looking straight at him, they didn't recognize what they were seeing.
Cinder Ash responded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post

I don't know if I see Jesus speaking in a joking manner:

Testimonies About Jesus
31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, ( past tense) and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

We must remember John was beheaded and this saddened Jesus beyond any sadness I feel we could understand.

“Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.
Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand
13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place.
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  #2  
Old 01-26-2011, 08:41 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

This episode started when Jesus made a man who couldn't walk whole on the Sabbath. Now what was the purpose of the Sabbath? God worked for six days and then rested. Man was to do something. Man was to do something to finish himself. God didn't finish man. That is why He did not pronounce the man "good" after making him. Man wasn't good.

The whole plan was good. God saw all that He had made and said it was good; but of man, He didn't say that.

So along comes Jesus and observing the Sabbath made the man whole. He was not breaking the Sabbath. Breaking the Sabbath involved altering God's works. If God makes the grass grow, you should not mow it. Observing the Sabbath taught people to distinguish between what God does and what people do. If you had a chair, you could move that since a man had made that. So God didn't finish man; and man was to finish himself. That was the commandment given to the first man Adam; and we see here the second Adam obeying it and claiming the same authority given to the first Adam. Was not Adam given the authority to use the Word? Did not God tell him to name the animals?

So enter the complainers. The spiritually blind. Enter those who aren't blind spiritually but of vile motives. Jesus then commences to say some confusing things.

Let me go back before verse 31:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.


This is referencing Adam who was given dominion over the earth.



22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

This is true, but there's a twist on it later. Jesus appears to contradict himself later.

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Adam, who was also given the power to speak and have even the animals obey, is referenced again. There is an unspoken irony here too; for those who do not honor the Son also bring dishonor on themselves.


25 Verily, verily, I say unto you , The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This was, I suppose, said mostly to perplex and astound them. It continues to perplex and astound. I am laughing again.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

There is a kind of cosmic humor in this.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.


Is John the witness he means here, or is this a distraction to confuse them? It is true that John bore witness, but did this crowd really hear John? Many of them secretly despised John and went out to be baptized for all the wrong reasons.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

See? He's not talking about John.


35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

This is another distraction meant to confound them. John writes in chapter one that John was not that Light.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

I find verse 35 amusing also because this type of hypocrite was the type John lambasted. For all I know some of the same people might be involved. Jesus is probably mocking them for pretending to "rejoice in his light." John the Baptist was popular and the religious leaders were afraid to oppose him.

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Back to our text now:

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.


This is also not as obvious as one might think. There's more to it than simply healing a man. Jesus came to "finish" the works -- see the text above about the dead being resurrected -- to make people "whole."


38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

No, the word was not in them. It was in Jesus though. What do people make of that? He said that as a criticism.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They had only dead words on a page. Letters. Literal. The Word of the LORD for them had become a snare (as Isaiah 28:13 puts it).


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?


I can just see the faces of the good people there who had often thought these leaders were after seeking the honor of men and promoting themselves but who never ventured to say it. The poor sheep who thought they were wrong to think such bad things about their leaders! Suddenly they see someone dares to say it out loud. It's like the little kid who said the Emperor had no clothes on.

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Isn't this odd after telling them judgment had been given to him? Is he jesting or not? No, he's not joking here. But if Moses is accusing them to the Father, how can the Father judge them if He gave all judgment to the Son? This is meant to confound these people.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


This also makes me smile. Maybe I shouldn't find some things amusing but I do. I understand it if others may not.

Now then, what of John the Baptist?

Quote:
We must remember John was beheaded and this saddened Jesus beyond any sadness I feel we could understand.
Why would he sadden him? The saddest thing in that story was when John fell into doubt in prison. The greatest prophet born to woman fell into doubt. That is the saddest thing to me; and it shows how wicked the world can be, even for the best of souls.

When he was beheaded, his trials were over. Surely Jesus knew he was in good hands then. Why be sad?

Last edited by Giuliano : 01-26-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2011, 11:27 AM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

Did Jesus ever joke ? could also mean did Jesus ever had fun ? did He laugh ?

The Scriptures is clear that Jesus attended parties and ate with publicans or sinners. Certainly Jesus was not a killjoy when He was with them.

What I believe is Jesus have what is more than what we call jokes. The Bible though is silent about it, so I will not speculate on them.


ped
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:58 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

You didn't think it was even slightly funny when Jesus called Herod a fox?

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Poor Herod, thinking he could hunt Jesus down when Jesus knew what was going on and was in control. Jesus could have called him something nastier, but just compared him to a fox who does what foxes do. It's also a sort of compliment too since Herod was a very clever person just like a fox. Not like a wolf.

But it gets more serious, for after comparing Herod to a fox, Jesus compares himself to a hen with chicks. He was more concerned about them than about himself. Herod the fox chasing him was not his concern.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:50 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
You didn't think it was even slightly funny when Jesus called Herod a fox?

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Poor Herod, thinking he could hunt Jesus down when Jesus knew what was going on and was in control. Jesus could have called him something nastier, but just compared him to a fox who does what foxes do. It's also a sort of compliment too since Herod was a very clever person just like a fox. Not like a wolf.

But it gets more serious, for after comparing Herod to a fox, Jesus compares himself to a hen with chicks. He was more concerned about them than about himself. Herod the fox chasing him was not his concern.
I see your point on that one. Yes our God laughs too as written in Psalms 2:4 but I will not quote the whole chapter. Psalms 2:4 He that sits in the heavens shall laugh.

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  #6  
Old 01-26-2011, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post

Quote:
This episode started when Jesus made a man who couldn't walk whole on the Sabbath. Now what was the purpose of the Sabbath? God worked for six days and then rested. Man was to do something. Man was to do something to finish himself. God didn't finish man. That is why He did not pronounce the man "good" after making him. Man wasn't good.

The whole plan was good. God saw all that He had made and said it was good; but of man, He didn't say that.
Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

This image, likeness is not good?
Do you purport God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are lacking or not finished?
Are you suggesting God changed his mind and made a lesser image, likeness when actually creating Adam in genesis 2?


Quote:
So along comes Jesus and observing the Sabbath made the man whole.
If he was whole why would Jesus warn him?

“See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.

Quote:
So enter the complainers. The spiritually blind. Enter those who aren't blind spiritually but of vile motives.
Vile motives aren't spiritually blind?

Quote:
Jesus then commences to say some confusing things.
Let me go back before verse 31:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.


This is referencing Adam who was given dominion over the earth.




22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

This is true, but there's a twist on it later. Jesus appears to contradict himself later.

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Adam, who was also given the power to speak and have even the animals obey, is referenced again. There is an unspoken irony here too; for those who do not honor the Son also bring dishonor on themselves.
I sense you are putting too much emphasis on Adam from these passages. The only reference I can make is that Adam was a man, the first man.

How do you see Jesus contradicting himself?
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Is this the lesser image, likeness of Jesus?


Quote:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you , The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This was, I suppose, said mostly to perplex and astound them. It continues to perplex and astound. I am laughing again.
Perhaps but to me it appears to be reasoning judgment.

I suggest you could interpret with any emotion and read that emotion into the passages. Tearfully, angrily, joyfully, sadly, jokingly etc.

Quote:
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

There is a kind of cosmic humor in this.
Hmmmm, cosmic humour perhaps.
Godliness, yes!

Quote:
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.


Is John the witness he means here, or is this a distraction to confuse them? It is true that John bore witness, but did this crowd really hear John? Many of them secretly despised John and went out to be baptized for all the wrong reasons.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

See? He's not talking about John.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

This is another distraction meant to confound them. John writes in chapter one that John was not that Light.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Like moths to the flame they came to John.
For a season at least.

To whom is Jesus referring to if not John?

Quote:
I find verse 35 amusing also because this type of hypocrite was the type John lambasted. For all I know some of the same people might be involved. Jesus is probably mocking them for pretending to "rejoice in his light." John the Baptist was popular and the religious leaders were afraid to oppose him.
I don't sense mocking to be an edge of a sword that would cut through to the marrow.

Quote:
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Yes and the axe is already at the root of every tree.
The judgment that Jesus had been given by the Father.

Quote:
Back to our text now:

36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.


This is also not as obvious as one might think. There's more to it than simply healing a man. Jesus came to "finish" the works -- see the text above about the dead being resurrected -- to make people "whole."


38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

No, the word was not in them. It was in Jesus though. What do people make of that? He said that as a criticism.
It is like cutting the head of a chicken with the double edge sword.
It may take considerable time before the chicken stops running around in a confused state.
People can see it funny, mockingly watching the chicken running around or even the action of cutting the head off.
But is the intention of the one who brandishes the sword of such?


Quote:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They had only dead words on a page. Letters. Literal. The Word of the LORD for them had become a snare (as Isaiah 28:13 puts it).
YES!

Quote:
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?


I can just see the faces of the good people there who had often thought these leaders were after seeking the honor of men and promoting themselves but who never ventured to say it. The poor sheep who thought they were wrong to think such bad things about their leaders! Suddenly they see someone dares to say it out loud. It's like the little kid who said the Emperor had no clothes on.
YES!



Quote:
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Isn't this odd after telling them judgment had been given to him? Is he jesting or not? No, he's not joking here. But if Moses is accusing them to the Father, how can the Father judge them if He gave all judgment to the Son? This is meant to confound these people.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


This also makes me smile. Maybe I shouldn't find some things amusing but I do. I understand it if others may not.
I can put myself in your position and understand your perspective but I can't say it is my perspective.
I will only say Jesus has the true perspective.
One of godliness.

Quote:
Now then, what of John the Baptist?


Why would he sadden him? The saddest thing in that story was when John fell into doubt in prison. The greatest prophet born to woman fell into doubt. That is the saddest thing to me; and it shows how wicked the world can be, even for the best of souls.

When he was beheaded, his trials were over. Surely Jesus knew he was in good hands then. Why be sad?
Grieve would probably be a better word. Not only because of the close relationship between Jesus and John, from the womb to the baptism till John's death but also because John was one of righteousness and testified to righteousness and this is how righteousness was treated.

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Also I suggest the very purpose of Jesus was dawning on him with each and every thought. The cup he was to drink.
The cup of suffering to bring about true righteousness.

I am teary now.

Do you think Jesus took a boat to a solitary place to marvel at how he had mocked the Jewish leaders?
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  #7  
Old 01-26-2011, 10:10 PM
Giuliano
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

Quote:
Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

This image, likeness is not good?
Do you purport God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are lacking or not finished?
Are you suggesting God changed his mind and made a lesser image, likeness when actually creating Adam in genesis 2?
How could God make another like unto Himself? That cannot be what that means when it says that. In fact, the word can mean "shadow." We are fashioned in the "shadow" of God. Now a shadow is like whatever is casting the shadow but.... Jesus also speaks of the "shape" of the Father in this passage, telling them they don't know what it is, never having seen it. Again this goes back to Genesis once you know that Adam was made in the "shade" or "shadow" of God.

All I can say is that Genesis omits the pronouncement of it being good twice -- on Day Two when the waters were divided, and when man was made. This is significant, I believe.

Did not God give the Man the ability to choose? He was poised midway between the two. He could go either way.
Quote:
If he was whole why would Jesus warn him?

“See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.
The dog which returns to its vomit.... He was made whole in a spiritual manner too. He could not sin in ignorance. Many sins (maybe most) are of ignorance. You may not see what I see here. I think this man was completely able to live thereafter sinlessly. He saw Jesus "as he is."

Quote:
Vile motives aren't spiritually blind?
There are vile motives which you could call spiritually blind, but I'd think of them as rather trivial. There is something far more vile.

People can be gullible creatures. You can convince them -- by brutalizing them -- that they have to be brutal themselves to survive. I can excuse that. They then are passing on the contagion of evil. It's an illness. It can be stopped by not returning evil for evil. Absorb it, take it, and end that part of the madness of evil going on and on.

There are people who understand this and make a profit at it. These are the true villains, the wolves in sheep's clothing.
Quote:
I sense you are putting too much emphasis on Adam from these passages. The only reference I can make is that Adam was a man, the first man.
Why is "son of man" such a high title? That means "son of Adam." Why did it make some people angry when Jesus referred to himself as the son of man?

Quote:
How do you see Jesus contradicting himself?
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
I said he appears to contradict himself. It's a puzzle. First he says all judgment is given to him; and later he refers to Moses accusing them tot he Father, implying the Father is the judge.

Quote:
Is this the lesser image, likeness of Jesus?
The first Adam was not finished. Jesus did what the first Adam failed to do. No? Became.... Did.... And then said, "It is finished."

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Quote:
Perhaps but to me it appears to be reasoning judgment.
Do you think the Jews understood this when he's talking about the resurrection? How can you establish such a thing by reasoning?

Quote:
I suggest you could interpret with any emotion and read that emotion into the passages. Tearfully, angrily, joyfully, sadly, jokingly etc.
I suppose so.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

There is a kind of cosmic humor in this.

Hmmmm, cosmic humour perhaps.
Godliness, yes!
How is that godliness?



Quote:
Like moths to the flame they came to John.
For a season at least.

To whom is Jesus referring to if not John?
It was the Light in John which bore witness to the Light in Jesus. Is it not so?

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

When the Word is spoken in Genesis, half of the "darkness" hears and obeys and becomes Light. The other half does not hear and remains dark, or it hears but rejects it and does not obey and remains dark. Thus the Word of God divides; and Jesus tells this crowd that they do not have the word in them in verse 38. For them the Word was "out there" written down on pages.

Now I ask you to consider two things. Should a Christian be living in the word, or should the word be in the Christian? I don't understand the first phrase. I don't know what people mean when they say that. I understand "living by every word." But in as if someone is inside the word instead of having the word inside them?
Quote:
Quote:
I find verse 35 amusing also because this type of hypocrite was the type John lambasted. For all I know some of the same people might be involved. Jesus is probably mocking them for pretending to "rejoice in his light." John the Baptist was popular and the religious leaders were afraid to oppose him.
I don't sense mocking to be an edge of a sword that would cut through to the marrow.
Sorry but I don't follow you there. Jesus was mocking their hypocrisy, I think, not mocking the death of John.
Quote:
It is like cutting the head of a chicken with the double edge sword.
It may take considerable time before the chicken stops running around in a confused state.
People can see it funny, mockingly watching the chicken running around or even the action of cutting the head off.
But is the intention of the one who brandishes the sword of such?
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. My comment may be irrelevant. Judgment -- final judgment was not passed here. These people weren't running around like chickens. They were arrogant.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They had only dead words on a page. Letters. Literal. The Word of the LORD for them had become a snare (as Isaiah 28:13 puts it).
YES!
Do you not find it amusing? When people try to outwit God or make His Words into tools which serve them and their interests, they may find themselves outwitted -- just as the fox Herod got outfoxed as long as Jesus wanted to avoid him.

Quote:
Quote:
I can just see the faces of the good people there who had often thought these leaders were after seeking the honor of men and promoting themselves but who never ventured to say it. The poor sheep who thought they were wrong to think such bad things about their leaders! Suddenly they see someone dares to say it out loud. It's like the little kid who said the Emperor had no clothes on.
YES!
So you see that! Wonderful. Jesus wasn't saying mean things just to be mean. Eyes got opened -- it may look as if he's talking to one group of people, but the real message is for others.
Quote:
I can put myself in your position and understand your perspective but I can't say it is my perspective.
I will only say Jesus has the true perspective.
One of godliness.
Perhaps I should have been clearer. If the Father had given judgment to Jesus, why would Moses be accusing these people to the Father?
Quote:
Grieve would probably be a better word. Not only because of the close relationship between Jesus and John, from the womb to the baptism till John's death but also because John was one of righteousness and testified to righteousness and this is how righteousness was treated.
No harm came to John. Why would Jesus grieve? Does that sound cold?

Quote:
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
God did the job he was sent to do. What is there to be sad about?

Quote:
Also I suggest the very purpose of Jesus was dawning on him with each and every thought. The cup he was to drink.
The cup of suffering to bring about true righteousness.

I am teary now.

Do you think Jesus took a boat to a solitary place to marvel at how he had mocked the Jewish leaders?
No, to get out of Herod's kingdom. When John was dead, many Zealots and others who wanted to revolt against the Romans were attracted to Jesus then, making him a target. Were they military people? I think so. Luke tells us they sat down in companies of fifty. Why would that be? I rather think it was to keep them apart from each other since some of the parties who wanted to fight Rome also didn't get along with each other.

Herod probably thought John wanted to start a revolt. He might have too because he kept preaching about the marriage of Herod. Herod had just divorced one wife who was a Princess from Idumea in order to marry his brother's ex-wife. The Idumeans felt insulted, and John's preaching was also insulting to the new wife. Herod also probably felt threatened by a possible armed conflict with the Idumeans.

There is also the problem of John the High Priest whom Herod probably had murdered after he had served his purpose. He was found drowned in Herod's pool. John the High Priest had been very popular; and Herod had him replaced by someone who almost no one liked. Anaias and Caiphas and the whole family were seen as money-grubbers by most Jews. Why name John the Baptist John then when that name was not in Zechariah's family? Well, it shows support for a return to the Maccabean family for High Priests.

John the Apostle was probably another supporter of the Maccabeans, with access to inside gossip. He tells us the "inside story" of what the inner circle was saying and what their spies told them. The Gospel of John has several juicy details about what happened "behind the scenes." He must have talked to Nicodemus too since the other Gospels don't mention that conversation. Maybe John got some of that other "inside" information from him.

So put yourself in Herod's shoes. He didn't want to kill John the Baptist since he revered him; but he didn't want to let him loose to preach and possibly start a revolt. When John was dead, I think Herod was right to think the rebels wanted someone to rally around; and when he heard about Jesus, Jesus naturally was perceived as a threat. Was Herod right? You see the evidence by how fast 5000 men (and it says men, not men, women and children) came running to Jesus into a desert place in Galilee when he fled from Herod's kingdom of Judea. I'd say they were looking for a leader to start a revolt.

Now back to your comment about reading emotions into things. I sometimes try to visualize scenes from the Bible and try to feel what the people were feeling. I suppose I may err here and there, but it makes things seem alive to me.
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  #8  
Old 01-26-2011, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post

How is that godliness?
Everything about Jesus is godliness.


Quote:
Sorry but I don't follow you there. Jesus was mocking their hypocrisy, I think, not mocking the death of John.
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. My comment may be irrelevant. Judgment -- final judgment was not passed here. These people weren't running around like chickens. They were arrogant.
The words of Jesus cut deeply that they sought to kill him.
They run around seeking a way to and do but the words still work at their conscience after the crucifixion till they die.


Quote:
Do you not find it amusing? When people try to outwit God or make His Words into tools which serve them and their interests, they may find themselves outwitted -- just as the fox Herod got outfoxed as long as Jesus wanted to avoid him.
I can find things amusing


Quote:
No harm came to John. Why would Jesus grieve? Does that sound cold?


God did the job he was sent to do. What is there to be sad about?
John 11:33
When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled.

John 13:21
After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.”

John 11:38
[ Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead ] Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance.

Jesus knew of all these things were to happen so why would he be moved and troubled?

Straight after the disciples of John told Jesus of John's demise he left in a boat to a place of solitude.
For what reasons only Jesus knows.


What you say following may be true:

Quote:
No, to get out of Herod's kingdom. When John was dead, many Zealots and others who wanted to revolt against the Romans were attracted to Jesus then, making him a target. Were they military people? I think so. Luke tells us they sat down in companies of fifty. Why would that be? I rather think it was to keep them apart from each other since some of the parties who wanted to fight Rome also didn't get along with each other.

Herod probably thought John wanted to start a revolt. He might have too because he kept preaching about the marriage of Herod. Herod had just divorced one wife who was a Princess from Idumea in order to marry his brother's ex-wife. The Idumeans felt insulted, and John's preaching was also insulting to the new wife. Herod also probably felt threatened by a possible armed conflict with the Idumeans.

There is also the problem of John the High Priest whom Herod probably had murdered after he had served his purpose. He was found drowned in Herod's pool. John the High Priest had been very popular; and Herod had him replaced by someone who almost no one liked. Anaias and Caiphas and the whole family were seen as money-grubbers by most Jews. Why name John the Baptist John then when that name was not in Zechariah's family? Well, it shows support for a return to the Maccabean family for High Priests.

John the Apostle was probably another supporter of the Maccabeans, with access to inside gossip. He tells us the "inside story" of what the inner circle was saying and what their spies told them. The Gospel of John has several juicy details about what happened "behind the scenes." He must have talked to Nicodemus too since the other Gospels don't mention that conversation. Maybe John got some of that other "inside" information from him.

So put yourself in Herod's shoes. He didn't want to kill John the Baptist since he revered him; but he didn't want to let him loose to preach and possibly start a revolt. When John was dead, I think Herod was right to think the rebels wanted someone to rally around; and when he heard about Jesus, Jesus naturally was perceived as a threat. Was Herod right? You see the evidence by how fast 5000 men (and it says men, not men, women and children) came running to Jesus into a desert place in Galilee when he fled from Herod's kingdom of Judea. I'd say they were looking for a leader to start a revolt.

Now back to your comment about reading emotions into things. I sometimes try to visualize scenes from the Bible and try to feel what the people were feeling. I suppose I may err here and there, but it makes things seem alive to me.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:09 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

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Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Everything about Jesus is godliness.
Yes, but why? Is there something to be learned there? By saying he can do nothing by himself, how is that being godly?

Quote:
The words of Jesus cut deeply that they sought to kill him.
They run around seeking a way to and do but the words still work at their conscience after the crucifixion till they die.
We have a different perspective on this. I don't think these people's consciences were wounded. Their problems with Jesus were more practical. They were afraid of his gaining too much influence, and that might threaten theirs. In consultation before his arrest, we see they wanted to take action for fear they might lose their jobs.

John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.


It's politics. Which side should I be on to keep my position? We see the same disgusting attitude in our politicians today. In some of the clergy too. When they say something, it's not because they genuinely believe it -- no, there are political reasons behind their words and actions.

I see I have a lower opinion of them than you. You seem to give them credit for having some decency! I think I'm right since John the Baptists called them vipers. They look like Pharaoh to me with his hard heart -- willing to self-destruct before giving up and willing to take people with him to destruction. The enormity of Pharaoh's evil can't be seen if we see only his own disobedience and taking risks with his own life. It's seen when he takes his army with him to perish, after been given signs it was foolish to keep insisting on keeping the Israelites as slaves.

There is a stark comparison to be made between Jesus who was willing to die to protect others, to save them -- and false leaders who are willing to have others die to protect their own positions.

Quote:
John 11:33
When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled.

John 13:21
After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.”

John 11:38
[ Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead ] Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance.

Jesus knew of all these things were to happen so why would he be moved and troubled?
I thought a great deal about this. Why wasn't Jesus moved when Martha said the same thing? If he was, it's not mentioned. With Mary, it is mentioned.

I don't think Martha surprised him. He loved him and knew this could be something she would think. I think he loved her to not trying to hide her thoughts. He could look at her realizing there were things she ddin't understand yet -- but everything was still fine since she was on the path. Martha hadn't altered course. Martha was being Martha. When we understand things and know they're under control, we are not unduly troubled. We may sympathize with the feelings of others, but we also know things will be okay.

I think Mary surprised him. She had been listening to Martha and fell into a state which surprised Jesus. Something had gone wrong. Things can go wrong when people with free will are involved. I surmise (I admit I'm guessing) that Mary had faced a doubt and decided (by an act of will) that Martha was right, that Jesus was in error. This act of will put her off the path. She was in danger. I think that's what troubled Jesus. If she didn't reverse that act of will by going back to the original path, she could keep going down a wrong path.

The matter of Lazarus confounds me. I could present ideas, but none satisfy me and I doubt they would make sense to anyone else. There appears to be something here which, if it might be known, remains unknown to me. I do not know if it can be known or if I am being obtuse.

We have this passage which some people say is connected to the story of Lazarus:

Mark 10:46 And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.

That reads as if something is missing. Why wouldn't it read, "And they passed through Jericho..." Mark is not one who wasted words. There is a theory that a passage about what happened in Jericho is missing; and that it has something to do with Lazarus. It also doesn't help that we aren't always sure about the chronological order in the Gospels except for Luke who tells us his account is in order.

I don't know then why Jesus was troubled at the tomb; but something must have happened which had altered the expected flow of events. I think it would have been more than Mary's altering course although it could be connected somehow.

People often think Jesus did miracles to impress people. I'm not sure about that always being the case. He took one man away from the crowds to heal him; and in some instances told people to be quiet. In this case, he may have known raising Lazarus from the dead would raise a lot of attention. Maybe he didn't want that kind of attention? That puts him in a spot. Does he resurrect Lazarus and deal with the unwanted publicity, or does he let Lazarus stay in the tomb so he doesn't have to do with the publicity?

It is a puzzle. Some say Jesus delayed on purpose, letting Lazarus die so he could perform a miracle. I find that hard to believe. That would be using people for props to make a reputation for himself. So I have no real answer here.

I am convinced however that something which Jesus thought was on course had gone off course. That means an act of human will was involved. Someone did something to upset the expected flow of events. That is very troubling when we are counting on things going right and then see them going wrong.

What is more troubling? The continuing animosity of an enemy, or being surprised by a friend's sudden lack of support? The rattle in your auto which you know what it is, or a new rattle which could be anything? So I think Jesus saw the potential for danger for his friends here -- good people he thought were in spiritual safety -- and something happened that endangered them. With Martha though, this was not so. Martha didn't upset him as I see it. He accepted her and knew what how she thought; and that was fine.

Bottom line: I don't know. I can't believe he was troubled by anything on his own account. He was troubled I think being motivated by Love. When we care, we risk being troubled when things aren't going right for the people we care about. Maybe that's why God gives us families?
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  #10  
Old 01-27-2011, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: Did Jesus ever joke?

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post

Bottom line: I don't know. He was troubled I think being motivated by Love.
I think we can come to an agreement on this
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