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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

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  #1  
Old 11-27-2010, 01:15 PM
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Default Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Hi to all, and the question is , where did the Body of Christ begin ?

I do know that Paul was the ONLY , one to write and explain what it means !

And the following will be just one verse that explains where it began !

And I am not talking about the Assembly in Matt 16:18 and has NOTHING TO DO with this OP .

In Rom 1:1 , Paul a slave of Jesus Christ , having been called to be an apostle SEPARATED unto the Gospel of God .

#1 , The Greek word APHORIZO / SEPARATED is translated by three English words ;

a , by Boundries
b , by Limited
c , by separated

#2 , This says that Paul was FROM THIS POINT IN , was separated , and boundaries were set , and that Paul was LIMITED to ONLY preach the Gospel of God , and NOT what Jesus and the 12 disciples preach , because they were Law Keepers !

#3 , The Greek word APHORIZO is in the Greek Perfect Tense , which means Past Action with Continuing Results .

#4 , I like to use John 19:30 to show what the Perfect Tense means ! In John 19 , Jesus on the cross says " it is finished " which is in the Perfect Tense . It means that Jesus died 2000 years age and He Continues to saved people into the Present !

#5 , Just do what Rom 10:9 says and you to will be saved and you can do this right now , by yourself , with out any help !

#6 , APHORIZO , means that the moment that Paul was saved , Paul was no longer A Pharisee or a Law Keeper , but was given a new message , or a New Gospel , as Gal 11-12 and it is called the Revelation of the Mystery in Eph 1-5 and Rom 16:25-26 !

#7 , And Rom 16:25 says that is " made known to all NATIONS for the OBEDIENCE of Faith , and here it is !!
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2010, 08:42 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

This is my view.

The Church, as Bride of Christ, is female. In Genesis, we see Eve being taken from the side of Adam. The Bride of Christ, the Church, was formed from the side of Jesus:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

It is for this reason, I believe, that some churches mix water with the wine when celebrating Communion.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

I am confused here. Do you refer then to the physical body of Christ? You said you do not mean the assembly. Besides that, I agree with Giuliano on the spiritual view the Fathers gave to the wounded side of Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas also wrote on the parallel:

"…both [blood and water] pertain to the Eucharist, because in the sacrament of the Eucharist water is mixed in with the wine; even though the water does not pertain to the substance of the sacrament. All of this pertains to the figure: because just as from the side of Christ sleeping on the Cross, blood and water flowed out, by which the Church is consecrated; so, from the side of the sleeping Adam the first woman was formed, who prefigured the Church. Precisely here is posited the certitude of the
narration, and first because it is from the apostolic witness; and secondly, from this prophecy of Scripture: …. And these were accomplished so that the Scripture might be fulfilled…" [Super Io., cap. 19 l. 5.].

And here:

"… this means I have slept profoundly. Indeed, it is said that Christ slept profoundly, because He handed Himself over spontaneously to His Passion; and because He slept, death followed. This is because He passed over from ordinary sleep to one that was more profound. This sleep is prefigured by that of Adam: Then, the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam… [Gn 2:21] For the Church was formed by the side of the dead Christ on the Cross.10 And he says further: and I have risen up, i.e. by my ow n pow er. I have the power to lay down my life and take it up again… [Jn 10:18]."
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaVerbumDei View Post
I am confused here. Do you refer then to the physical body of Christ?
danp is an ultra-dispensationalist. He believes in the two gospels theory.
It's dan that's confused not you!
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
This is my view.

The Church, as Bride of Christ, is female. In Genesis, we see Eve being taken from the side of Adam. The Bride of Christ, the Church, was formed from the side of Jesus:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

It is for this reason, I believe, that some churches mix water with the wine when celebrating Communion.
What if the Church as the Body of Christ is male [as the natural body of Jesus was male], while the Bride of Christ, which is taken out of the Body of Chist is female?
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:16 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
What if the Church as the Body of Christ is male [as the natural body of Jesus was male], while the Bride of Christ, which is taken out of the Body of Chist is female?
This is hard to put into words that make sense since there are two realities simultaneously when the two are one.

I do not think "h'adam" was male. "H'adam" was made "male and female" and then divided. Nor do I see the "first Adam" as a being of physical flesh at first; the entrance into earthly bodies seems to have occurred when they lost their bodies of Light and God clothed them in "skin" -- not "skins."

The natural body of Jesus was male; but I think his spiritual nature was both male and female -- with the proper "image and like of God" of the female half -- required to defeat the seed of the serpent. When that was done, the "first born male child" was caught up to heaven while the "woman" remained below, still persecuted by the dragon but having other children. (This is true also for some of the saints, I believe.)

I see what is above as male and what is below as female. Thus the head of the body is male, while the rest of the body is considered female. If we consider both parts together as the Body of Christ, it would be neither male nor female but both. To me, the Church is also the female half since it bears the children.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
This is hard to put into words that make sense since there are two realities simultaneously when the two are one.

I do not think "h'adam" was male. "H'adam" was made "male and female" and then divided. Nor do I see the "first Adam" as a being of physical flesh at first; the entrance into earthly bodies seems to have occurred when they lost their bodies of Light and God clothed them in "skin" -- not "skins."

The natural body of Jesus was male; but I think his spiritual nature was both male and female -- with the proper "image and like of God" of the female half -- required to defeat the seed of the serpent. When that was done, the "first born male child" was caught up to heaven while the "woman" remained below, still persecuted by the dragon but having other children. (This is true also for some of the saints, I believe.)

I see what is above as male and what is below as female. Thus the head of the body is male, while the rest of the body is considered female. If we consider both parts together as the Body of Christ, it would be neither male nor female but both. To me, the Church is also the female half since it bears the children.
I do not deny the possibility of what you are saying, but you have some scripture in support that? Thanks!
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:31 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
I do not deny the possibility of what you are saying, but you have some scripture in support that? Thanks!
Point by point? Here goes.

I do not think "h'adam" was male. "H'adam" was made "male and female" and then divided.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Elohim is a male noun but with a feminine plural ending.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The word "rib" actually doesn't occur there. Eve was taken from the side of h'adam. (When I write h'adam, I mean the undivided being. The switch from h'adam to name Adam doesn't occur until later.) Hebrew has another word for rib. The word there means "side" just as it means elsewhere in the Bible.

Nor do I see the "first Adam" as a being of physical flesh at first; the entrance into earthly bodies seems to have occurred when they lost their bodies of Light and God clothed them in "skin" -- not "skins."

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Another unfortunate translation suggesting God killed animals and made garments out of their skins. In the Hebrew it's in the singular. It's odd how the preconceptions of translators affect how they they translate words.

The natural body of Jesus was male; but I think his spiritual nature was both male and female -- with the proper "image and like of God" of the female half -- required to defeat the seed of the serpent.

It is impious, I think, to suggest that the feminine nature of Eve was imperfectly formed before h'adam was divided since the text says h'adam was made male and female in the image and likeness of God. We see, I would say, the same feminine image and likeness of God in Mother Mary. The war has always been between the seed of the Woman and the seed of the serpent.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When that was done, the "first born male child" was caught up to heaven while the "woman" remained below, still persecuted by the dragon but having other children. (This is true also for some of the saints, I believe.)

The reference is to Revelation of course, but care needs to be taken not to interpret that as a direct representation -- the cases are parallel.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The parallel is the same as to the firstfruits at Passover season and then Pentecost. (I neglect to provide Scriptures for this.)

I see what is above as male and what is below as female. Thus the head of the body is male, while the rest of the body is considered female. If we consider both parts together as the Body of Christ, it would be neither male nor female but both. To me, the Church is also the female half since it bears the children.

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

There is great significance in the woman with her hair and the feet of Jesus. Jesus loved her, and she was "covered" spiritually. The physical positions were different; but compare also how Boaz covered Ruth -- of the cursed race of Moab.

By no means is this denigrating to women, not in my eyes anyway. When the male and female are lined up with the "feet" of the male on the "head" of the woman, it is her feet which stand on earth. By taking the lowest position, woman is exalted.

Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Men may "lead" the Church and seem important; but the increase of the kingdom depends on the prayers of women.

Was not Jesus said to be lowly?

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

I believe this was the nature of Mary within him. When he ascended to Heaven, the feminine got left behind in a certain way; but in another way it was also exalted.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:01 PM
Amadeus's Avatar
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Very good, Guiliano! Much of what you have said, I already believed, but you have amplified some and added on a few points that I really had not considered previously, but which do seem to fit. Thank you for this. This gives me alot to consider and to pray about. I have copied your text onto a Word document on my computer for study and future reference!

Giving God all of the glory!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Point by point? Here goes.

I do not think "h'adam" was male. "H'adam" was made "male and female" and then divided.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Elohim is a male noun but with a feminine plural ending.

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The word "rib" actually doesn't occur there. Eve was taken from the side of h'adam. (When I write h'adam, I mean the undivided being. The switch from h'adam to name Adam doesn't occur until later.) Hebrew has another word for rib. The word there means "side" just as it means elsewhere in the Bible.

Nor do I see the "first Adam" as a being of physical flesh at first; the entrance into earthly bodies seems to have occurred when they lost their bodies of Light and God clothed them in "skin" -- not "skins."

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Another unfortunate translation suggesting God killed animals and made garments out of their skins. In the Hebrew it's in the singular. It's odd how the preconceptions of translators affect how they they translate words.

The natural body of Jesus was male; but I think his spiritual nature was both male and female -- with the proper "image and like of God" of the female half -- required to defeat the seed of the serpent.

It is impious, I think, to suggest that the feminine nature of Eve was imperfectly formed before h'adam was divided since the text says h'adam was made male and female in the image and likeness of God. We see, I would say, the same feminine image and likeness of God in Mother Mary. The war has always been between the seed of the Woman and the seed of the serpent.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When that was done, the "first born male child" was caught up to heaven while the "woman" remained below, still persecuted by the dragon but having other children. (This is true also for some of the saints, I believe.)

The reference is to Revelation of course, but care needs to be taken not to interpret that as a direct representation -- the cases are parallel.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The parallel is the same as to the firstfruits at Passover season and then Pentecost. (I neglect to provide Scriptures for this.)

I see what is above as male and what is below as female. Thus the head of the body is male, while the rest of the body is considered female. If we consider both parts together as the Body of Christ, it would be neither male nor female but both. To me, the Church is also the female half since it bears the children.

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

There is great significance in the woman with her hair and the feet of Jesus. Jesus loved her, and she was "covered" spiritually. The physical positions were different; but compare also how Boaz covered Ruth -- of the cursed race of Moab.

By no means is this denigrating to women, not in my eyes anyway. When the male and female are lined up with the "feet" of the male on the "head" of the woman, it is her feet which stand on earth. By taking the lowest position, woman is exalted.

Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Men may "lead" the Church and seem important; but the increase of the kingdom depends on the prayers of women.

Was not Jesus said to be lowly?

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

I believe this was the nature of Mary within him. When he ascended to Heaven, the feminine got left behind in a certain way; but in another way it was also exalted.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:23 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Did the BODY OF CHRIST have a beginning ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
Very good, Guiliano! Much of what you have said, I already believed, but you have amplified some and added on a few points that I really had not considered previously, but which do seem to fit. Thank you for this. This gives me alot to consider and to pray about. I have copied your text onto a Word document on my computer for study and future reference!

Giving God all of the glory!
I forget which Catholic saint first conveyed the idea to me that the Church came from the side of Jesus. It was probably St. Teresa of Avila. That thought gave me a lot to think about, and the more I learned about Genesis, the more I could see what she was saying.
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