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  #1  
Old 09-08-2010, 02:48 PM
Beauty1's Avatar
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Default The different sides of God

From the thread " The Fruit of Good and Evil" I have been asked the following questions...
  1. How is God the Father a God of vengeance?
  2. Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?
  3. How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?
  4. Can He be angry with us (punishment)?

#1 and #3 I know that I stated these things in the thread... 2 & 4 I'm not sure that I stated but will address any how.


How is God the Father a God of vengeance?

Ezekiel 25:14
I will take vengeance on Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they will deal with Edom in accordance with my anger and my wrath; they will know my vengeance, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

Ezekiel 25:17
I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them.'"

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Romans 3:5,6
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?


Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes, I believe so... I am a believer in the triune Godhead...

The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).

John 15:26
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one."


How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?

I don't know "How" He can choose whom He has mercy on... But it is what He said...

Romans chapter 9 explains this throughly... I encourage you to read this whole chapter... but lets focus on specif verses..

15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


Can He be angry with us (punishment)?

I do believe that God can and does chastise His children...

He chasens those that He loves... Just as we punish our children in their disobedience.

Hebrews 12:6
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Psalms 31:23
Love the LORD, all his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but the proud he pays back in full.

-------------------------

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2010, 04:42 PM
SeraphimH
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The different sides of God

I asked these questions to Beauty1 in another thread (fruits of good and evil). I'll make my post brief, because incredibly long posts are beyond my patience (and other's).

How is God the Father a God of vengeance?
Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?
How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?
Can He be angry with us?

Since God does not change (Malachi 3:6), it is obviously us that is changing. God is love(1 John 4:8), always. He has no mood swings. The difference is in man, not in God. The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God's judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man.

God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). This "fire" is His love, which purifies and illumines those who love Him and darkens and burns those who hate Him. It's always love, but affects each of us differently, according to our love for Him. This is the chastisement we feel, and is mentioned throughout the Bible as "punishment", "anger", "vengeance" and the like. It is our condition that chastises us, when we flee from His love towards our own selfish desires.

I'm not sure why you (Beauty1) focused on God the Father as a God of vengeance. That's why I posed my questions as I did. Since God is Trinity and uncreated, wouldn't that imply that God as a whole is vengeful? Or perhaps the Trinity works against Himself somehow, ie. the Son diverting the anger of the Father, like in the "Atonement theory"?
Maybe you meant God as a whole when you said "will of the Father", and I'm just reading too much into it. Please excuse me if that is the case.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2010, 05:43 PM
PermaPetra's Avatar
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Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphimH View Post

Since God is Trinity and uncreated,
Uncreated! I love that phrase! Mind going into the complete meaning of that for me? If it would derail the thread, by all means send a PM.

Looking forward to your response!

__________________
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Corinthians 8:2

If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Romans 12:18

Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another. Mark 9:50
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  #4  
Old 09-08-2010, 08:41 PM
colin's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,603
Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty1 View Post
From the thread " The Fruit of Good and Evil" I have been asked the following questions...
  1. How is God the Father a God of vengeance?
  2. Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?
  3. How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?
  4. Can He be angry with us (punishment)?

#1 and #3 I know that I stated these things in the thread... 2 & 4 I'm not sure that I stated but will address any how.


How is God the Father a God of vengeance?

Ezekiel 25:14
I will take vengeance on Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they will deal with Edom in accordance with my anger and my wrath; they will know my vengeance, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

Ezekiel 25:17
I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them.'"

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Romans 3:5,6
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?


Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes, I believe so... I am a believer in the triune Godhead...

The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).

John 15:26
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one."


How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?

I don't know "How" He can choose whom He has mercy on... But it is what He said...

Romans chapter 9 explains this throughly... I encourage you to read this whole chapter... but lets focus on specif verses..

15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


Can He be angry with us (punishment)?

I do believe that God can and does chastise His children...

He chasens those that He loves... Just as we punish our children in their disobedience.

Hebrews 12:6
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Psalms 31:23
Love the LORD, all his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but the proud he pays back in full.

-------------------------

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Beauty, God's wrath comes from his word too. His mercy is in the spiritual understanding and the flesh make people know he is God because of it. He will execute his judgement by the hand of his people. That means he will let then teach them the scriptures as a sword without spiritual understanding. Through that they are made slaves to their own sin. Put in bondage. Haven't you ever hear some one teaching the old testament and being know as a fire and brimstone teacher. Its allways the same, their are two understandings, lots of opionions but just two understandings, the flesh or the Spirit. The spirit means the spiritual understanding and there you find God's loving kindness, his mercy, truth to set you free from the bondage the flesh puts you in. The potter makes two vessells and each has their purpose.
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  #5  
Old 09-08-2010, 09:00 PM
SeraphimH
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by PermaPetra View Post


Uncreated! I love that phrase! Mind going into the complete meaning of that for me? If it would derail the thread, by all means send a PM.

Looking forward to your response!

God has no beginning, no force that created Him. He is outside of time, has no beginning, and no end. Eternal, immutable, uncircumscribable, uncreated.

Orthodox prayer is full of language like this, to help our feeble minds understand just how glorious our God is. It's hard to wrap your mind around something that cannot be contained.

Last edited by SeraphimH : 09-08-2010 at 09:13 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2010, 10:06 PM
PermaPetra's Avatar
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,288
Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphimH View Post
God has no beginning, no force that created Him. He is outside of time, has no beginning, and no end. Eternal, immutable, uncircumscribable, uncreated.

Orthodox prayer is full of language like this, to help our feeble minds understand just how glorious our God is. It's hard to wrap your mind around something that cannot be contained.
Oh yes, I understand the difficulty, truly.

I had anticipated your going into the uncreated-ness of Christ. Maybe you didn't intend this though?

Thank you!
__________________
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Corinthians 8:2

If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Romans 12:18

Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another. Mark 9:50
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  #7  
Old 09-09-2010, 06:56 AM
Soulheart3's Avatar
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Posts: 5,017
Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty1 View Post
From the thread " The Fruit of Good and Evil" I have been asked the following questions...
  1. How is God the Father a God of vengeance?
  2. Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?
  3. How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?
  4. Can He be angry with us (punishment)?

#1 and #3 I know that I stated these things in the thread... 2 & 4 I'm not sure that I stated but will address any how.


How is God the Father a God of vengeance?

Ezekiel 25:14
I will take vengeance on Edom by the hand of my people Israel, and they will deal with Edom in accordance with my anger and my wrath; they will know my vengeance, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

Ezekiel 25:17
I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them.'"

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Romans 3:5,6
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?


Is God the Father one with the Son and Holy Spirit?

Yes, I believe so... I am a believer in the triune Godhead...

The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14).

John 15:26
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one."


How can He "choose" who He has mercy on?

I don't know "How" He can choose whom He has mercy on... But it is what He said...

Romans chapter 9 explains this throughly... I encourage you to read this whole chapter... but lets focus on specif verses..

15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


Can He be angry with us (punishment)?

I do believe that God can and does chastise His children...

He chasens those that He loves... Just as we punish our children in their disobedience.

Hebrews 12:6
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Psalms 31:23
Love the LORD, all his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but the proud he pays back in full.

-------------------------

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Even in the New Testament times, God has shown his justice.

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay], saith the Lord. ...
bible.cc/romans/12-19
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Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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  #8  
Old 09-09-2010, 10:01 AM
Beauty1's Avatar
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Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Since God does not change (Malachi 3:6), it is obviously us that is changing. God is love(1 John 4:8), always. He has no mood swings. The difference is in man, not in God. The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God's judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man.
well said.


Quote:
God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). This "fire" is His love, which purifies and illumines those who love Him and darkens and burns those who hate Him. It's always love, but affects each of us differently, according to our love for Him. This is the chastisement we feel, and is mentioned throughout the Bible as "punishment", "anger", "vengeance" and the like. It is our condition that chastises us, when we flee from His love towards our own selfish desires.
For our God is a consuming fire - The quotation is made from Deuteronomy 4:24. "For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."

The object of the apostle here seems to be, to show that there was the same reason for fearing the displeasure of God under the new dispensation which there was under the old. It was the same God who was served. There had been no change in his attributes, or in the principles of his government.

He was no more the friend of sin now than he was then; and the same perfections of his nature which would then lead him to punish transgression would also lead him to do it now.


Quote:
I'm not sure why you (Beauty1) focused on God the Father as a God of vengeance. That's why I posed my questions as I did. Since God is Trinity and uncreated, wouldn't that imply that God as a whole is vengeful? Or perhaps the Trinity works against Himself somehow, ie. the Son diverting the anger of the Father, like in the "Atonement theory"?
Maybe you meant God as a whole when you said "will of the Father", and I'm just reading too much into it. Please excuse me if that is the case.
I do imply that God as a whole (Father, Son, Spirit) is vengeful. It is absolutely part of who He is. However, I do not imply that is the only attribute of Him. The list of His attributes are bountiful.
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  #9  
Old 09-09-2010, 05:41 PM
SeraphimH
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The different sides of God

There's a beautiful quote from the River of Fire that applies here (I think I've posted this before):

"In the language of the Holy Scriptures, just means good and loving. We speak of the just men of the Old Testament. That does not mean that they were good judges but that they were kind and God-loving people. When we say that God is just, we do not mean that He is a good judge Who knows how to punish men equitably according to the gravity of their crimes, but on the contrary, we mean that He is kind and loving, forgiving all transgressions and disobediences, and that He wants to save us by all means, and never requites evil for evil.22 In the first volume of the Philokalia there is a magnificent text of Saint Anthony which I must read to you here:
God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions.
He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God's goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind."
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  #10  
Old 09-09-2010, 05:47 PM
SeraphimH
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The different sides of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by PermaPetra View Post


Oh yes, I understand the difficulty, truly.

I had anticipated your going into the uncreated-ness of Christ. Maybe you didn't intend this though?

Thank you!
The Holy Trinity is uncreated. Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity, Who took on flesh to save us from death through His death and resurrection. His divinity is uncreated. His humanity (which I think you're asking about) is created, but incorrupt and now eternal. One person, two natures.

Am I missing something here Perma?
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