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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

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  #1  
Old 07-26-2010, 08:22 PM
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Default Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

You can freely choose a red car over a blue car (if you can afford it). You can choose an orange pop over a grape pop. You can choose chicken for supper instead of tacos.

But you did not choose your parents, your color of skin, where you were born and you do not choose your salvation.

The words freewill or choice are found no where in the Bible when it comes to salvation; in fact the Bible teaches us TO the CONTRARY...
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2010, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
You can freely choose a red car over a blue car (if you can afford it). You can choose an orange pop over a grape pop. You can choose chicken for supper instead of tacos.

But you did not choose your parents, your color of skin, where you were born and you do not choose your salvation.

The words freewill or choice are found no where in the Bible when it comes to salvation; in fact the Bible teaches us TO the CONTRARY...
Hello Benoni, Although I believe this will be a great thread, I don't think that not having the ability to choose ones personal features, lifestyle or parents can be used as a support for not being able to choose salvation.

While the scriptures do not have the exact words "freewill" or "choice" when it speaks of salvation, the implication is there from many verses. I personally agree with you in that man does have (limited) physical free will but does not have a spiritual free will to save himself, for he is dead. Jesus pointed to this in his account of raising Lazarus from the dead:
John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, THOUGH HE WERE DEAD, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? ..... 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


This account is a parable and picture of salvation, Lazarus represented someone who was spiritually dead, bound by the power of satan, brought to life and then comanded by Christ to "loose him and let him go". Thus for the truly saved, Satan has no more the power to bind us.

Again, I believe this will be an interesting thread to discuss.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:58 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record
this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,
blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou
and thy seed may live:
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

^Thank you. Although the ability to choose is expressed many times in Scripture, this Scripture was the one that immediately came to mind upon reading the post
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
You can freely choose a red car over a blue car (if you can afford it). You can choose an orange pop over a grape pop. You can choose chicken for supper instead of tacos.

But you did not choose your parents, your color of skin, where you were born and you do not choose your salvation.

The words freewill or choice are found no where in the Bible when it comes to salvation; in fact the Bible teaches us TO the CONTRARY...
So are you a calvinist, perhaps of the Harold Camping persuasion?
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

Amen.

Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. Godís Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state as you just pointed out. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual dead man/carnal man/wan without the spirit is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God.

Notice the context of eph 2; 1-8

I just posted this in another thread. "QUICK ."Quick means living and active ó LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Finally man comes into the picture.


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast


Quote:
Originally Posted by AIEC View Post
Hello Benoni, Although I believe this will be a great thread, I don't think that not having the ability to choose ones personal features, lifestyle or parents can be used as a support for not being able to choose salvation.

While the scriptures do not have the exact words "freewill" or "choice" when it speaks of salvation, the implication is there from many verses. I personally agree with you in that man does have (limited) physical free will but does not have a spiritual free will to save himself, for he is dead. Jesus pointed to this in his account of raising Lazarus from the dead:
John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, THOUGH HE WERE DEAD, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? ..... 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


This account is a parable and picture of salvation, Lazarus represented someone who was spiritually dead, bound by the power of satan, brought to life and then comanded by Christ to "loose him and let him go". Thus for the truly saved, Satan has no more the power to bind us.

Again, I believe this will be an interesting thread to discuss.
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2010, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

And may I ask what does this verse have to do with salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record
this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,
blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou
and thy seed may live:
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2010, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

No way. I am a Christian Universalist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
So are you a calvinist, perhaps of the Harold Camping persuasion?
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2010, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

What verse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
^Thank you. Although the ability to choose is expressed many times in Scripture, this Scripture was the one that immediately came to mind upon reading the post
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  #10  
Old 07-26-2010, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself

^Thank you for your response. Too bad Peggy is currently occupied, she is a longstanding poster and a Christian universalist at that.
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