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Old 07-22-2010, 08:44 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default The Law of Moses

Before engaging the topic of the Written Law of Moses, we should first remember that the matter of dominion over the earth was given to man. Man was given free will and told to exercise dominion over the earth.

Was God wrong to do this? No. Will He change His mind about it? No. For God to change His mind about this would be to admit He had been wrong in the first place. I was watching some of the videos by Bishop Sheen; and he was correct to say that mankind can summon angels or demons. That is because dominion over the earth is mankind's. Angels seldom interfere with earthly affairs against the Law of Free Will; and demons also seldom do for fear of the consequences. Demons can be removed from the earth for violating the Free Will of mankind; therefore, they seldom take the risk. The person who has the wrong ideas about dominion over the earth is apt to err in his views on how angels and demons behave; and he is apt to err in how he interprets other matters.

There are popular theories about the "end of times" which shows an angry God who has given up on mankind and who then wreaks out vengeance, interfering with the earth and violating the very free will He gave to mankind. This is not so, cannot be so. God did not make a mistake giving free will to mankind, so there is no need for Him to do anything that would violate His own Laws of Free Will and of Dominion over the Earth. Put any such naive ideas out of your mind if any exist.

God's purposes on earth will succeed without any need for Him to interfere by violating the free will of mankind. To do this, He uses His servants on earth. They are free to summon the angels. They are free to ask for Divine aid. The history of the Bible shows that God acts through His servants. He does not need many; sometimes one or two will do for a beginning. He can work with small things if need be.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Let us now look at the Covenant of Noah. There are, say the Jews, certain things known to all men through their consciences; and all mankind is obliged to obey these things. Any descendant of Noah knows these things and is obliged to keep them. This is the result of an agreement between Noah and God. God did not impose it from above. This Covenant remains in force today, remains valid. Here is the list:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, anal intercourse between men, and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)


This in general is very similar to what the Apostles later said -- omitting the requirement to have a secular government since they already had the Roman government as a legitimate secular authority. It is not identical but it is similar. We get this list because there were some who were teaching that Christians had to be circumcised according to the Covenants of Abraham and of Moses.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

What was the verdict of the Apostles? They reverted to a version of the Covenant of Noah:

Acts 1:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


How so? Why wouldn't Christians obey the Law of Moses?

It was never given to Gentiles, that's why. To impose the Law of Moses on Gentiles without their consent and agreement would be a violation of their free will and contrary also to their right to exercise dominion over the earth. The case with Israel is different because they had voluntarily taken the vow at Sinai to obey it.

Is that not a sensible thing? That God expects people to keep their vows? That God does not expect Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses since they did not take the vow? It would be unjust for God to demand that of Gentiles; and while the Apostles could have made it a requirement had they wished, they clearly saw it was unnecessary. Thus, the teaching in the New Testament is that Christians are not obliged to keep the Law of Moses.

Is that in agreement with the Old Testament? It is. There is nowhere in the Torah, the Prophets or the Writings which state that Gentiles are bound by the Law of Moses. Ask the next Rabbi you meet if you don't believe me; or better yet read the Torah and see for yourself. It is a complete misunderstanding of the Torah to think it applies to people who did not take the vow at Sinai.

I can certainly produce various passages from the Scriptures which say that many things within the Law of Moses were there to remind Israel of being delivered from Egypt -- including the Sabbath, the Feast of Tabernacles and so on. Do I need to produce them, or do people know them already?

I will admit that there are a few passages in the New Testament which seem to imply that the Law of Moses could be binding on Gentile Christians; but let me defer discussing those at the moment. Believe me, I have not overlooked them. They are misunderstood because most Christians have such a mistaken view of Judiasm, they do not know what Jesus is talking about at times. Most Christians look at the Torah in a way most Jews certainly do not.

The irony is that many Christians do what the Saducees and some other Jewish leaders in Jesus' day did, looking at the Torah literally -- an attitude Jesus mocked and railed against. The Torah can be the source of wisdom if we approach it properly; but when approached literally, I fear we've missed the whole point just as the Saducees did.

I hope to take up soon those passages that some read to mean that Christians are under the Law of Moses in another post.
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  #2  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:18 PM
Moses
 
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Before engaging the topic of the Written Law of Moses, we should first remember that the matter of dominion over the earth was given to man. Man was given free will and told to exercise dominion over the earth.

Was God wrong to do this? No. Will He change His mind about it? No. For God to change His mind about this would be to admit He had been wrong in the first place. I was watching some of the videos by Bishop Sheen; and he was correct to say that mankind can summon angels or demons. That is because dominion over the earth is mankind's. Angels seldom interfere with earthly affairs against the Law of Free Will; and demons also seldom do for fear of the consequences. Demons can be removed from the earth for violating the Free Will of mankind; therefore, they seldom take the risk. The person who has the wrong ideas about dominion over the earth is apt to err in his views on how angels and demons behave; and he is apt to err in how he interprets other matters.

There are popular theories about the "end of times" which shows an angry God who has given up on mankind and who then wreaks out vengeance, interfering with the earth and violating the very free will He gave to mankind. This is not so, cannot be so. God did not make a mistake giving free will to mankind, so there is no need for Him to do anything that would violate His own Laws of Free Will and of Dominion over the Earth. Put any such naive ideas out of your mind if any exist.

God's purposes on earth will succeed without any need for Him to interfere by violating the free will of mankind. To do this, He uses His servants on earth. They are free to summon the angels. They are free to ask for Divine aid. The history of the Bible shows that God acts through His servants. He does not need many; sometimes one or two will do for a beginning. He can work with small things if need be.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Let us now look at the Covenant of Noah. There are, say the Jews, certain things known to all men through their consciences; and all mankind is obliged to obey these things. Any descendant of Noah knows these things and is obliged to keep them. This is the result of an agreement between Noah and God. God did not impose it from above. This Covenant remains in force today, remains valid. Here is the list:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, anal intercourse between men, and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)


This in general is very similar to what the Apostles later said -- omitting the requirement to have a secular government since they already had the Roman government as a legitimate secular authority. It is not identical but it is similar. We get this list because there were some who were teaching that Christians had to be circumcised according to the Covenants of Abraham and of Moses.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

What was the verdict of the Apostles? They reverted to a version of the Covenant of Noah:

Acts 1:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


How so? Why wouldn't Christians obey the Law of Moses?

It was never given to Gentiles, that's why. To impose the Law of Moses on Gentiles without their consent and agreement would be a violation of their free will and contrary also to their right to exercise dominion over the earth. The case with Israel is different because they had voluntarily taken the vow at Sinai to obey it.

Is that not a sensible thing? That God expects people to keep their vows? That God does not expect Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses since they did not take the vow? It would be unjust for God to demand that of Gentiles; and while the Apostles could have made it a requirement had they wished, they clearly saw it was unnecessary. Thus, the teaching in the New Testament is that Christians are not obliged to keep the Law of Moses.

Is that in agreement with the Old Testament? It is. There is nowhere in the Torah, the Prophets or the Writings which state that Gentiles are bound by the Law of Moses. Ask the next Rabbi you meet if you don't believe me; or better yet read the Torah and see for yourself. It is a complete misunderstanding of the Torah to think it applies to people who did not take the vow at Sinai.

I can certainly produce various passages from the Scriptures which say that many things within the Law of Moses were there to remind Israel of being delivered from Egypt -- including the Sabbath, the Feast of Tabernacles and so on. Do I need to produce them, or do people know them already?

I will admit that there are a few passages in the New Testament which seem to imply that the Law of Moses could be binding on Gentile Christians; but let me defer discussing those at the moment. Believe me, I have not overlooked them. They are misunderstood because most Christians have such a mistaken view of Judiasm, they do not know what Jesus is talking about at times. Most Christians look at the Torah in a way most Jews certainly do not.

The irony is that many Christians do what the Saducees and some other Jewish leaders in Jesus' day did, looking at the Torah literally -- an attitude Jesus mocked and railed against. The Torah can be the source of wisdom if we approach it properly; but when approached literally, I fear we've missed the whole point just as the Saducees did.

I hope to take up soon those passages that some read to mean that Christians are under the Law of Moses in another post.
Lets start with the Lords prayer, how a mass and hail Mary is paying the way Jesus instructed.

I totally agree that today in some christian denominations they have the same legalistic, traditions of man. Pharisaic persons.

The Law of Moses was given because Holy Lord was going to dwell in the Hebrews in the land with them. Because Lord is Holy the in order for HIM to dwell among people the people have to be Holy to.

He also ordained priesthood and the tabernacle as Holyfing "device"

It is written, you should keep all of my ordinances/commandments and you will be Holy to your Lord.


Validity of the Law of Moses when there is no Temple is another question, was it given only when Shechinah is with Israel. And if not then only the 7 laws of Noahite covenant apply.

As to Jerusalem Decree mentioned in Acts.

If we are the temples and our digestive fire is then a sacrificial system then food prepared for idols once consumed will be like a sacrifice to idol.

The question is if Gentiles are really other nations or Lost Sheep of Israel and then they are Hebrews. Not every gentile accepted Jesus, only these sheep who recognized the voice of their shepherd.
These are the saints to whom Paul addressed his letters.
Remember that by that time the kingdom of Israel the 10 tribes were among many nations for some 700 years.
Lord promised that time will come and he will gather them.

But Paul also won the dispute about other laws that don't apply to non Jews.

As to Jews, Lord on numerous occasions renewed Mosaic Covenant with them.
During Ezra and Nehemiah for example or later the Hanukah.
In Jeremiah prophecy about new covenant we learn that Lord will have one with each house, house of Israel and house of Judah.
Later only the covenant of house of Israel is described.

Judah much later then Jeremiah during Ezrah and Nehemiah renewed Mosaic covenant.

Last edited by Moses : 07-22-2010 at 02:43 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-26-2010, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Giuliano

Quote:
Before engaging the topic of the Written Law of Moses, we should first remember that the matter of dominion over the earth was given to man. Man was given free will and told to exercise dominion over the earth.
Yes this is true man has dominion over the earth; but he does not have a choice or freewill towards salvation.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:28 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
Giuliano
Yes this is true man has dominion over the earth; but he does not have a choice or freewill towards salvation.
If you do not have free will, then I cannot change your mind. Therefore, I would be wasting my time talking to you.
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2010, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

I stated a thread on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
If you do not have free will, then I cannot change your mind. Therefore, I would be wasting my time talking to you.
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2010, 09:42 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
I stated a thread on this.
Did you have a choice about starting it?
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  #7  
Old 07-27-2010, 08:36 AM
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Yes I did. But that has nothing to do with me having a choice towads salvation which is not scriptural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
Did you have a choice about starting it?
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  #8  
Old 07-31-2010, 04:37 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
Yes I did. But that has nothing to do with me having a choice towads salvation which is not scriptural.
Wrong.

Salvation is TOTALLY your choice. You have the freedom to accvept or reject God, to do His will or to act against it.
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  #9  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:39 AM
Moses
 
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

Only be strong and very courageous, to observe to do according to all the law, which Moses My servant commanded thee; turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest have good success whithersoever thou goest.
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein; for then thou shalt make thy ways prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
22 Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances. Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances.Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years.Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for ever?so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy;Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem.Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.'

Last edited by Moses : 08-01-2010 at 03:59 AM.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2010, 12:14 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
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Default Re: The Law of Moses

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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Only be strong and very courageous, to observe to do according to all the law, which Moses My servant commanded thee.....
Okay. So when are you going to sacrafice some animals?
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