True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-20-2009, 08:42 PM
AIEC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Default As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I would like your input on this verse to perhaps bring in some clarification. There are some who feel that this verse is speaking of a physical death and there are some who feel this is speaking of a spiritual death. Which do you hold to and why? I would prefer scripture with your answers so that I may compare with the scriptures in hopes that we may come to some type of conclusion.

When God told Adam in Gen 2, "17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN THE DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." we can see that Adam did not die physically in that day but he did die spiritually.

This is the beginning of spiritual death for mankind and why I believe that physical death is not in view in Heb 9:27, let me explain further.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

My second reason for understanding that this verse does not have physical death in view is that not all men have (Elijah) or will see death (rapture), therefore as we understand the word appointed to literally mean (reserved), we can know that it is spiritual death that is in view here.

Does "men" mean "all men or mankind" or is it just a general term? While it is true that the verse does not specifically say "all men or mankind", the word used "man" (Strongs 444) can be used to refer to a single individual, many people, or mankind. So it does not necessarily have to say "man kind" in order to mean that, we must look for further clarification in the bible to help us understand how the word must be understood here.

My third reason for understanding this passage in Hebrews as a spiritual death is the word used to describe what will happen after this death, "judgment" (Strong's 2920). This word "judgment" means condemnation & damnation.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation(Strong's 2920).; but is passed from death unto life.
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (Strong's 2920).


You see, all men are born spiritually dead, because of Adam, this is what mankind is appointed for. When we become saved, we pass from spiritual death to spiritual life. So the death men are "appointed" for as it says in Heb 9:27, and then the "judgment" or "condemnation" cannot refer to those men that have physically died saved. They did not come into this judgment. Therefore all those who have spiritually died, which is man kind, are under God's condemnation, until they are saved.

Furthermore, the passage in Hebrews directly parallels the passages in 1 Cor 15:22 & Rom 5:16-18.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Cor 15:21-22
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
ROMANS 5
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


These are my reasons for understanding the passage in Hebrews as referring to spiritual and not physical death.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:02 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIEC View Post
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I would like your input on this verse to perhaps bring in some clarification.........
Okay. It means you are judged immediately upon death, for good or for ill, for heaven or for hell. There is no "sleep state" as some Christians believe. This judgement is called the "particular" judgement and is meant for the individual alone. It is not to be confused with the general judgement at the end of time.

If I may be allowed to quote:


I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593--or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595

references:
590 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10.
591 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
592 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
593 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334): DS 990.
594 Cf. Benedict XII, 8enedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
595 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.


source: link

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 10-20-2009 at 09:29 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:03 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

(duplicate)

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 10-20-2009 at 09:09 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:17 PM
AIEC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Okay. It means you are judged immediately upon death, for good or for ill, for heaven or for hell.
But this word "judgment" is the same word as condemnation and damnation, how would it be possible for it to imply heaven or hell. It seems as though it is only speaking of hell. What do you think?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:28 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIEC View Post
But this word "judgment" is the same word as condemnation and damnation, how would it be possible for it to imply heaven or hell. It seems as though it is only speaking of hell. What do you think?
I think that concordances have their uses, but should not be relied upon too heavily. Concordances lead the SDA's to think that Jesus drank grape juice - LOL - because they say the word in the Bible means unfermented grapes. A Rabbi would get a big kick out of that.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-20-2009, 11:02 PM
AIEC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I think that concordances have their uses, but should not be relied upon too heavily. Concordances lead the SDA's to think that Jesus drank grape juice - LOL - because they say the word in the Bible means unfermented grapes. A Rabbi would get a big kick out of that.
I agree. However I use a Greek concordance, I'm sure you know how it works but if not, It helps me see where the exact Greek word is used in the original text. By doing this it allows the Bible, which is God's word, interpret its own words by the context of the verses in which it is found. So even if the English translators decided to take the same Greek word and give each a different English translation to better fit the context, it doesn't change the meaning of the original word. For example, this word "judgment" (#2920) is found in the following passages:
JOHN 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into CONDEMNATION (2920); but is passed from death unto life.
JOHN 3
19 And this is the CONDEMNATION (2920), that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
MATTHEW 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the DAMNATION (2920) of hell?
MARK 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal DAMNATION(2920).
JOHN 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of DAMNATION(2920).

These verses give me a better understanding of what the word judgment means in Heb 9:27. Even if the English translators decided to use the word "judgment" in all of the above verses instead of damnation or condemnation, by reading the context we would still have a proper understanding of just what the word means as God intended it. But I believe the translators did a fine job, at least in the KJV, in choosing the words they did as it coveys the message clearer in each verse. So since they used "judgment", "damnation", "condemnation" in the English bible, we could say that all those words are synonymous.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-21-2009, 08:43 AM
colin's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,603
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

As when a man dies and departs from us , dead , we no longer can see of hear him and he is no longer part of our world. When you come to the scriptures they are in two understandings and the one is with God and the other with man in this world . So when you start you are dead to his world and it is appointed for men to die as it leads to life. This world see the things of this world so how can they say they believe in him that sent him when they don't even know him or the father that sent him. When you hear Jesus speak and believe in the spiritual understanding you are part of the eturnal world and no longer belong to this world. When you are in the things of this world's understanding you are in judgement but judgement isn't something that can't be overcome.

John , the most loved of Jesus also never died.
So I agree the death in the scriptures you spoke of is spiritual death.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-21-2009, 09:41 AM
CBE's Avatar
CBE CBE is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 330
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

So the Ark of the Covenant, the judgment seat, and the holy of holies, were figures of the true, only. Yet if you were to enter into the holy of holies, you would die. Now when Christ died, “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to the bottom” (Mat 27:51). What does this mean?

Does it not mean that He entered into the true Holy of holies? Yet just because He entered and left a way so that we might now follow Him, the rule in regard to entering has not changed has it? So all that enter still die, but if what is on earth is “figures of the true” then it is a heavenly death we are looking for.

Ps 19 : 9,10 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold…

Yet not all are looking for His judgments. You can only start getting His judgments when decide to die to your judgments. So those following Him, must die to their judgments. What does repentance really mean?

Therefore the physical dead is a sign for us that we have entered into His judgment. That means life eternal for those that have already been following Him and looking for His judgment, but death eternal for those deserving death. For it is written that those seeking to save their life will lose it.

I agree with you Colin
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-21-2009, 10:38 AM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Well, all three of you are wrong. It means what it says.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-21-2009, 11:16 AM
CBE's Avatar
CBE CBE is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 330
Default Re: As it is appointed unto men once to die...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Well, all three of you are wrong. It means what it says.
Is it possible to read the scriptures and come to some correct conclusions and miss the point entirely?

When a judge sits at the head of a court, He speaks His judgements. What He speaks may be written down so the whole land can read them and learn, but those seeking His judgements go to His court and hear what He has to say. So it is the hearing Him that is important.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, come to Me.

So it means what is says and righteousness comes from hearing.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
He Called Me! He Anointed Me! He Appointed Me! He Ordained Me! PentecostalEvangelist Prayer Requests 26 10-19-2009 02:36 PM
God Has Appointed an End Times Apostle ByFaithIC General Discussions 123 09-20-2009 09:09 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:12 PM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29