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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > "men from James"

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  #1  
Old 09-23-2009, 03:21 PM
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Default "men from James"

Quote:
Galatians 2:11-13
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
The text requires that it was the "men from James" who motivated Peter and Barnabas and the rest of the Jews to act more legalisticly.

So James was a legalist?

Quote:
Acts 21:18-20
18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
If James taught the same gospel as Paul, he would have taught the truth that is found in Hebrews 8:13:

Quote:
Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Let us assume James taught the same gospel as Paul. How can the Jews who converted to James's gospel there in Acts 21, remain "zealous for the law", while James is telling them that the Law-covenant is made obsolete by the death of Jesus?

James's converts remained zealous, after conversion, for a system that Jesus had taken away?
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2009, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: "men from James"

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Originally Posted by PancakeWait View Post
The text requires that it was the "men from James" who motivated Peter and Barnabas and the rest of the Jews to act more legalisticly.

So James was a legalist?



If James taught the same gospel as Paul, he would have taught the truth that is found in Hebrews 8:13:



Let us assume James taught the same gospel as Paul. How can the Jews who converted to James's gospel there in Acts 21, remain "zealous for the law", while James is telling them that the Law-covenant is made obsolete by the death of Jesus?

James's converts remained zealous, after conversion, for a system that Jesus had taken away?
James was the leader of the church in Isreal I think. And Jesus didnt take the system away from the Jews, he mainly added to it, but as to the Gentiles, we were not to adopt jewish laws or customs, and scripture attests to this fact. This does not negate the truths of what was shown to the jews through the OT, its simply that no such contract was made to the Gentiles, so they didnt have to adhere to it. God doesnt want to make it hard for us to fellowship with Him, its man who wants it to seem more difficult so that they can feel puffed up about supposedly obeying more than others.
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Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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  #3  
Old 09-24-2009, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: "men from James"

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Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
James was the leader of the church in Isreal I think. And Jesus didnt take the system away from the Jews, he mainly added to it, but as to the Gentiles, we were not to adopt jewish laws or customs, and scripture attests to this fact. This does not negate the truths of what was shown to the jews through the OT, its simply that no such contract was made to the Gentiles, so they didnt have to adhere to it. God doesnt want to make it hard for us to fellowship with Him, its man who wants it to seem more difficult so that they can feel puffed up about supposedly obeying more than others.
But the men from James motivated Barnabas to cease eating with the Gentiles, a change in behavior that was labeled "dissimulation" by Paul.

Who was right? The men from James (Jews must not eat with Gentiles), or Paul (Jews may eat with Gentiles)?
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  #4  
Old 09-24-2009, 05:12 AM
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Default Re: "men from James"

Quote:
Originally Posted by PancakeWait View Post
But the men from James motivated Barnabas to cease eating with the Gentiles, a change in behavior that was labeled "dissimulation" by Paul.

Who was right? The men from James (Jews must not eat with Gentiles), or Paul (Jews may eat with Gentiles)?
Well scripture shows that Paul was right. This came to a head when peter had his dream concerning this a bit later in scripture. A case where the Holy Spirit in this case with a dream was able to correct some falsehoods because someone in higher authority listened to the calling of the Holy Spirit.
__________________
Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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  #5  
Old 09-24-2009, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: "men from James"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
Well scripture shows that Paul was right. This came to a head when peter had his dream concerning this a bit later in scripture. A case where the Holy Spirit in this case with a dream was able to correct some falsehoods because someone in higher authority listened to the calling of the Holy Spirit.
Aren't you bothered by the fact that the men, who carry legalism into Antioch there in Galatians 2, are "from James"?

How do you figure James himself is NOT the source of legalism that Paul battles against, when paul admits those travelers were "men from James"?
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: "men from James"

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Originally Posted by PancakeWait View Post
Aren't you bothered by the fact that the men, who carry legalism into Antioch there in Galatians 2, are "from James"?

How do you figure James himself is NOT the source of legalism that Paul battles against, when paul admits those travelers were "men from James"?
He could well have been the source. Man always has been and always will be sinful and prone to make bad decisions thinking its the will of God. God will usually with time help us sort it out to set us back on the true path. As long as we are a part of the imperfect world with the "Old man" still a part of us, we will make bad decisions from time to time. I would advise not to worry about it to much, it will get a lot better when we pass from this world, this temporary imperfect world to the new life that entails eternity. Is there a reason that this bothers you or is there a point you are trying to make?
__________________
Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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  #7  
Old 09-24-2009, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: "men from James"

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Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
He could well have been the source. Man always has been and always will be sinful and prone to make bad decisions thinking its the will of God. God will usually with time help us sort it out to set us back on the true path. As long as we are a part of the imperfect world with the "Old man" still a part of us, we will make bad decisions from time to time. I would advise not to worry about it to much, it will get a lot better when we pass from this world, this temporary imperfect world to the new life that entails eternity. Is there a reason that this bothers you or is there a point you are trying to make?
I don't understand why you characterize the legalism from James as a "bad decision". Jesus never taught justification by faith apart from works, like Paul did. On the contrary, the basis for judgment day, according to Jesus, was not whether somebody had faith, but whether they did good works or not:

Quote:
Matthew 25:31-46

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
In other words, Jesus contradicts Paul, and says that a lack of good works WILL PROHIBIT you from Heaven. Yes, Paul taught that good works were not necessary to be saved:

Quote:
Romans 4:4-5 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Do you teach other Christians that a lack of good works will cause them to be cast into eternal punishment on judgment day? Or do you teach other Christians that those who do not work, but only believe, will also be justified by God?
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  #8  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: "men from James"

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Originally Posted by PancakeWait View Post
I don't understand why you characterize the legalism from James as a "bad decision". Jesus never taught justification by faith apart from works, like Paul did. On the contrary, the basis for judgment day, according to Jesus, was not whether somebody had faith, but whether they did good works or not:



In other words, Jesus contradicts Paul, and says that a lack of good works WILL PROHIBIT you from Heaven. Yes, Paul taught that good works were not necessary to be saved:



Do you teach other Christians that a lack of good works will cause them to be cast into eternal punishment on judgment day? Or do you teach other Christians that those who do not work, but only believe, will also be justified by God?
I teach only what I know to be true from scripture. What do you teach and what do you believe? Do you only believe in the gospels? Do you believe that the letters of the new testament are only valid if not written by Paul?
__________________
Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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  #9  
Old 09-25-2009, 09:23 AM
Laurie
 
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Default Re: "men from James"

I don't view James the Just as a legalist, or as teaching a different gospel than Paul.
Most of the earliest disciples of Christ had fled Jerusalem after Steven was killed....so many of the believers in Jerusalem while James was overseer of the church there were probably newer converts, still not able to let go of the old way that was so deeply imbedded into their culture. I think James fully understood the Way as Christ taught....and he definitely had a heavy cross to bear with the assignment he'd been given. He knew what was soon to come to pass to Jerusalem and those who remained there....yet he remained there, devoting his life to them, until they killed him for preaching the gospel of Jesus redeeming/freeing them from the law of sin and giving them the Spirit in which they could be doers of the law of liberty.

We must be careful not to think that "good works" and "justified works, or works that justify" are the same type of works, but differ in meaning....when we understand the difference, then we can clearly see the harmony in the teachings of Paul and James.
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  #10  
Old 09-25-2009, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: "men from James"

Salvation is a free gift from God. There is absolutely nothing a Christian can do to merit or earn it. The only wage that human beings can earn is death.

No one can earn eternal life through works.

Salvation is by God’s grace. But what is grace? It is completely unmerited pardon of one’s sin. This is what grace means. Salvation means that one is saved from death. Unless God intervenes to apply the blood of Jesus Christ to cover the repentant sinner’s past, there can be no salvation.


What role does faith play? Some believe that being “justified by faith” is all that Christians must be concerned with. They believe that anyone who teaches that any works are necessary denies God’s gift of salvation.


Faith does play a role, but what is it?

Ephesians 2:8-9 expands on Romans 6:23: “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that [the faith] not of yourselves: it [faith] is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”


Salvation comes as a free gift, by gracethrough faith!


Paul explained that even the faith must be a gift. Otherwise, it would be a “work” generated by human effort. If God gave salvation on this basis, it would mean that a Christian earned it through humanly-derived faith.
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