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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Sacraments

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  #21  
Old 07-02-2009, 10:53 AM
Amadeus's Avatar
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Default Re: Sacraments

God created all things. All that we see He made for us, but He gave us His Way to use each and every thing! When we do everything "in His name" then we are doing it His Way. Most of mankind, most of the time has gone his own way in opposition to God's Way. We have all been "out of His name" [and in anti-Christ].

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name..." John 17:12

Jesus "kept them in the name". After He departed, another Comforter was sent to keep them "in the name".

"And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:26

If any man takes something that God has created and misuses it or abuses it, that is he has used it in his own way, rather than in God's Way, which all of us have done, then that man's action is "out of the name" or is an anti-Christ action.

John,
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  #22  
Old 07-02-2009, 11:41 AM
CatholicCrusader
 
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Default Re: Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
......If any man takes something that God has created and misuses it or abuses it, that is he has used it in his own way, rather than in God's Way, which all of us have done, then that man's action is "out of the name" or is an anti-Christ action.

John,
I'm not quite sure how to take that
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  #23  
Old 07-02-2009, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Sacraments

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I'm not quite sure how to take that
See, you guys are now saying I only respond to Amadeus. Well I think he is the only one besides me that know what has happened.
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  #24  
Old 07-02-2009, 03:39 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
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Default Re: Sacraments

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Originally Posted by colin View Post
See, you guys are now saying I only respond to Amadeus. Well I think he is the only one besides me that know what has happened.
Don't jump to conclusions. I want to hear what he means first
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  #25  
Old 07-02-2009, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Sacraments

What are sacraments? You have described those as the RCC describes them. What Colin is describing is what is necessary as per God, without any of man’s trimmings or interpretations attached.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus:......If any man takes something that God has created and misuses it or abuses it, that is he has used it in his own way, rather than in God's Way, which all of us have done, then that man's action is "out of the name" or is an anti-Christ action.
Quote:
I'm not quite sure how to take that
God created everything "very good" [Gen 1:31]

God also gave man the dominion over the rest of God's creation [Gen 1:26]

As long as man followed God’s Way everything was already in God’s name [including man], but God gave man another option and man took it.

Initially, God had only put one restriction on man [Gen 2:17], but man messed up on that one thing and found himself on the pathway of the other option, man’s ways.

As a result man, was cursed to continue to eat of the fruit of that tree for the remainder of his life [Gen 3:17]. Instead of simply standing on God's Word and communing with Him continuously, now man had to continuously eat of the two types of knowledge: good and evil. He had to pick out his own ways constantly attempting to discern between the good and the evil himself instead of simply going along God's Way, which was always ‘very good’. Unfortunately man was no longer able to see God’s Way clearly.

Man had lost his ability to see God's face and to be in God’s name. He was unable to see God's face and live [Ex 33:20]. He did not know what God’s name was and did not how to be in it.

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov. 29:18

David knew he needed to look for the face of God!

“When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.” Psalm 27:8

Jesus also recognized man’s deficiency and needs:

“For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.” Matt 13:15-16

The ones with blessed eyes and ears were able to see God’s plan as Jesus laid it out before them and as God planted it in their hearts.

There were promises made before, but Jesus needed to reopen the Way. The Spirit of God through Him provided the needed eyes and ears.

Patriarchs, Prophets and priests in the OT were given a temporary means to follow God by the anointing of the Spirit, but until Jesus, the Door and the Way, to the only real Life were still closed. He finally made it possible for ‘whosoever will’ to see and to hear now and forever more!

Man thinks he can figure things out by choosing a good way or an evil way or some combination thereof [continuing to eat from the tree first tried by Adam and Eve], but Jesus, alone, makes it possible for us to follow along the Way [,which is Him] that was closed as a result of Adam’s fall.

What we need are “eyes to see and ears to hear”.

What is it we are to see? The Truth! What is it we are to hear? The Truth!

John,
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  #26  
Old 07-02-2009, 08:14 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
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Default Re: Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
What are sacraments? You have described those as the RCC describes them. What Colin is describing is what is necessary as per God, without any of man’s trimmings or interpretations attached......
I see. So when the Bible says "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet 3:21) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible. When Jesus says "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible. When Jesus says to the Apostles "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" (Jogn 20:23) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible.

We believe what the Bible says. We don't water it down like others do, making everything symbolic and worthless. Those three verses describe the sacraments of BAPTISM, EUCHARIST, and CONFESSION respectively.

You want more? The ANNOINTING THE SICK ? Read James 5:14–15:

"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

That's a sacrament if I ever heard one.

I respect you Amadeus, but don't accuse us of perpetrating "man's trimmings" when what we are really doing is taking the Bible for EXACTLY what it says.
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2009, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I see. So when the Bible says "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet 3:21) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible. When Jesus says "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible. When Jesus says to the Apostles "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" (Jogn 20:23) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible.

We believe what the Bible says. We don't water it down like others do, making everything symbolic and worthless. Those three verses describe the sacraments of BAPTISM, EUCHARIST, and CONFESSION respectively.

You want more? The ANNOINTING THE SICK ? Read James 5:14–15:

"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

That's a sacrament if I ever heard one.

I respect you Amadeus, but don't accuse us of perpetrating "man's trimmings" when what we are really doing is taking the Bible for EXACTLY what it says.
Good post CC. Scripture clearly states that "MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, unless a man is born of water AND the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3.5). For a time I considered that perhaps the "water" could be referring to the Holy Spirit. That is, until you actually read the text and don't ignore and explain it away. He does not say "and of water which is the Spirit," or "of water or the Spirit," but "of water AND the Spirit."

GOD DID NOT COME JUST TO SAVE US IN OUR SOUL, BUT OUR BODY AND SOUL, AND SO HE WASHES OUR BODY AND SOUL, our body with the Spirit-filled water and our soul with the Spirit which gives life and wells up in us unto life eternal.
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  #28  
Old 07-03-2009, 10:09 PM
Amadeus's Avatar
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Default Re: Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus:
What are sacraments? You have described those as the RCC describes them. What Colin is describing is what is necessary as per God, without any of man’s trimmings or interpretations attached......
Quote:
I see. So when the Bible says "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet 3:21) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible. When Jesus says "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible. When Jesus says to the Apostles "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" (John 20:23) that's man's trimming? No, thats the Bible.

We believe what the Bible says. We don't water it down like others do, making everything symbolic and worthless. Those three verses describe the sacraments of BAPTISM, EUCHARIST, and CONFESSION respectively.

You want more? The ANNOINTING THE SICK ? Read James 5:14–15:

"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

That's a sacrament if I ever heard one.

I respect you Amadeus, but don't accuse us of perpetrating "man's trimmings" when what we are really doing is taking the Bible for EXACTLY what it says.
At times, CC, you jump to conclusions. You put words into my mouth that I didn't speak and then condemned what you considered was my conclusion. You should read more carefully.

I asked a question and you did not answer it. Maybe you thought it was intended to be rhetorical, but it was not. I was not condemning you or Colin. I was describing what I saw as the difference. On both sides, I really do see God. Can you see nothing of God in Colin? Have you entered a final, guilty as charged verdict, without knowing him as God knows him?
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2009, 10:21 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
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Default Re: Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
..........Can you see nothing of God in Colin?.....]
I cannot judge his sincerity, so I must assume he is sincere. I do not judge others; God will do that. But, I think his Biblical interpretations are very wrong.

Quote:
On both sides, I really do see God
That is good
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  #30  
Old 07-03-2009, 10:43 PM
Amadeus's Avatar
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Default Re: Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus:
..........Can you see nothing of God in Colin?.....
Quote:
I cannot judge his sincerity, so I must assume he is sincere. I do not judge others; God will do that. But, I think his Biblical interpretations are very wrong.
Quote:
On both sides, I really do see God
Quote:
That is good
We are not on the exactly the same page, CC, but I hope you understand why I believe the highlighted portion of the following verse is so very important:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." II Thess 2:10

Without a love for the Truth that keeps us searching for it daily, the result will be as highlighted below:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:-11

Do I believe that you are deluded? Yes, in part, but you must understand that in part I believe myself also to be deluded, in part. Recognizing this, I ask daily for God to help me to discover the delusions, the lies, which I believe. Some of His answers and confirmations have come to me through Colin. Some of them have come through others on this forum, maybe even you.

I want to love God's Truth so much that no delusions, no lies to myself will remain in my heart. I cannot get to that place alone!

Glory to His name!
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