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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > If you cannot love an eternal torment god

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  #1  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:00 AM
rodgertutt
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you cannot love an eternal torment god

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
The Church Fathers Testify To The Ultimate Triumph Of Jesus Christ.
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
HISTORY OF OPINIONS

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM

GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
God's Truth For Today! - Author Index

IN THE GARDEN
In The Garden - Index

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

Fruit from the Teaching of Hell

consequences

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
The Law of Circularity

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
Savior of the World Series

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
The Law of Circularity

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
absolute assurance in jesus christ

This next url sums up the end result of all three
The Law of Circularity

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea!
Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
The Lake of Fire

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian

Also see
Savior of the World Series

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
Universal Salvation University
Christian-Universalism.com > Links
The Christian Universalist Association ~ Christian Universalism
Questions From and Inquirer about Christian Universalism
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

Bible Threatenings Explained

Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker

Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
Savior of the World Series

(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Gospel of the Bible and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt
and the many entries at Visitor Comments and Testimonies
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see Fruit from the Teaching of Hell

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
absolute assurance in jesus christ


POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
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  #2  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:02 AM
rodgertutt
 
Posts: n/a
Default How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown

WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 70 years old

My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 70 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can access my website through Google by typing in
hope4you rodger tutt, or
My website is
Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
absolute assurance in jesus christ
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
The Bible Hell
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
The Outcome of Infinite Grace
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
Just What Do You Mean...Hell?
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
Twenty-Four Short Sermons on the Doctrine of Universal Salvation
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
Restitution of All Things (Index)
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
150 Reasons For Believing In The Final Salvation Of All Mankind
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
The Rich Man and Lazarus by J. Patching
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
Chapter Sixteen
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
The Problem
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
The Restitution of All Things
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
The Restitution of All Things By George Hawtin
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
Savior of the World Series
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
The Law of Circularity
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE
reasons-not
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL?
Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible
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  #3  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:35 AM
Heneni
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god

Hey roger. I see you back. WITH all your links. HEHE....

I have to admit, since I read your posts (not the links) i have been wondering about what you are saying. I have come to believe that EVERYBODY will return to god. At some point. Not necessarily at the coming of christ....but at some point. And when i mean 'return' i mean returning to god, with the dispossion of knowing that there is no other god, that his wisdom is without reproach, that his plans never fail, and that there is none other worthy of glory and praise and honor for all eternity. Every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. And i believe that they will do so willingly and out of respect.

God bless
Heneni
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  #4  
Old 06-23-2009, 11:05 AM
rodgertutt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Every Knee Bowing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heneni View Post
Hey Rodger. I see you back. WITH all your links. HEHE....

I have to admit, since I read your posts (not the links) i have been wondering about what you are saying. I have come to believe that EVERYBODY will return to god. At some point. Not necessarily at the coming of christ....but at some point. And when i mean 'return' i mean returning to god, with the dispossion of knowing that there is no other god, that his wisdom is without reproach, that his plans never fail, and that there is none other worthy of glory and praise and honor for all eternity. Every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. And i believe that they will do so willingly and out of respect. God bless Heneni
Me too! :-)

EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW

Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
“in” is the literal Greek translation. See Young’s Literal Translation.

and every tongue acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord,
especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so

Every Knee Shall Bow

Every knee shall bow -- forced or free will
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  #5  
Old 06-23-2009, 11:55 AM
DrFrank's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 426
Default Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god

This a truly astonishing message considering the fact that punishment in hell was one of the most frequent topics Jesus talked about.Below you will read how He greatly expanded the Old Testament understanding of who would go to hell.

Matthew 5:22 (King James Version)

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Doesn't hold out much hope for those who think its acceptable to "fight (kill) for freedom " does it?
__________________


The Christian faith has not been designed to create success or find pleasure in or even tolerate this world but rather to OVERCOME it!
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  #6  
Old 06-23-2009, 02:07 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god

The Hell There Is!
A "Catholic Answers" Tract
source link

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[i]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show........

Click HERE to see early Church fathers quotes

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 06-23-2009 at 02:09 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-23-2009, 02:24 PM
rodgertutt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death

SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Chapter Eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood.

The Law of Circularity

We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.

It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.

You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"

There actually is much evidence.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.

Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:

Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

The Lake of Fire

Reconciliation in the Heavens

Savior of the World Series

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
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  #8  
Old 06-23-2009, 02:30 PM
rodgertutt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chart Of God’s Plan For The Ages Of Time

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:15 PM
SeraphimH
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god

Universal reconciliation denies free will. It twists the nature of God into something less than perfect love by tethering God to a necessity of cleansing all those "in the fire" when in actuality it is perfect love that leaves them there in total respect of their free will choice. This very fire is God's love. It is hell for one, heaven for another.

"God is a loving fire, and He is a loving fire for all: good or bad. There is, however, a great difference in the way people receive this loving fire of God. Saint Basil says that the sword of fire was placed at the gate of paradise to guard the approach to the tree of life; it was terrible and burning toward infidels, but kindly accessible toward the faithful, bringing to them the light of day.44 The same loving fire brings the day to those who respond to love with love, and burns those who respond to love with hatred.

Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head."
Dr. Alexander Kalomiros, "The River of Fire" River of Fire

This is the Orthodox understanding of God and the afterlife. It denies nothing of God's love or free will.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:37 PM
rodgertutt
 
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Default The Fallacy Of “free Will”

THE FALLACY OF “FREE WILL”

Copy and paste into Google
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

Pride says, "I got myself saved by properly cooperating with God."

Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”

Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's but IMHO it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.

God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.

God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERCEED the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

If God is really not willing that any perish, then why will they perish? Don't talk to me about free will. "No man can come to Me," Jesus said, "except the Father draw him" (John 6:44). Salvation is indeed a gift from God, sovereignly given, to whomever God chooses, when He chooses, and He will indeed grant it to all mankind, in due time (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). It does not depend on man's acceptance. Left to themselves, no man would ever choose God (Rom. 3:10-11). At the present time, God bestows benefits of life, food, health, rain, etc, to saints and sinners alike (Acts 17:25). He also has ordained for all mankind to experience a portion of both good and evil as well. The experiences of life are all preparatory to, and in anticipation of, our eternal life with God.

Some say all are given equal opportunity . . . "? Not so! This is patently untrue. The Scriptures clearly show that all mankind was plunged into its present state of being lost by the actions of one man, Adam (Rom. 5:12). All mankind are born sinners. In the history of the world, very few of mankind have ever been given the opportunity to believe in the "only name given under heaven, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Salvation is a gift, sovereignly given to those of God's choice. It was procured by the obedience of One Man, Christ Jesus, and His death on the cross (Rom. 5:15-18). It is for all mankind, it is presently enjoyed by all who believe, and will be bestowed on all mankind in due time (Romans 3:22, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). God's mercy is based on the fact that all sin has been judged in the person of His Son. God has subjected the whole creation to the experience of evil, in order to extend mercy to all (Rom 8:20). Romans 1:20 says that man is without excuse for denying God's existence. But the free gift of salvation has not yet been revealed to all mankind; only to a few now, in due time to all (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6).

IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
click on
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
or
Free Will and the oh well creed
or
aboutfreewillnote
or copy and paste into Google
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
The following chapter in this exposition specifically deals with the “free will” issue.
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
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