[CatholicCrusader]

Below is a magazine article on our view of being "Born Again". I'd like some responses. (The article is from a Catholic magazine, so it does have a Catholic POV. I have done some minor edits to soften its apologetic nature) Original source: LINK

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"Born Again" the Bible Way
By Tim Staples


"Have you been born again, my friend?" Thousands have been asked this question by well-meaning Christians. Of course, by "born again" they actually mean: "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior through the recitation of ‘the sinner’s prayer?’" How is one to respond?

The simple response is: "Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized." In fact, Jesus’ famous "born again" discourse of John 3:3–5, which is where we find the words "born again" in Scripture, teaches us about the essential nature of baptism:

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

When a Fundamentalist or Evangelical hears the Catholic position on the matter, the response is mostly predictable: "Baptism does not save you, brother; John 3:5 says we must be born of water and the Spirit." The Catholic will then be told the "water" of John 3:5 has nothing to do with baptism. Depending on the preference of the one to whom the Catholic is speaking, the "water" will either be interpreted as man’s natural birth (the "water" being amniotic fluid), and "the Spirit" would then represent the new birth—or the water would represent the word of God through which one is born again when he accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior.


Amniotic Fluid vs. Baptismal Water

To claim that the "water" of John 3:5 is amniotic fluid is to stretch the context just a smidgen! When we consider the actual words and surrounding context of John 3, the waters of baptism seem to be a more reasonable interpretation of what it means to be "born again." Consider these surrounding texts:

• John 1:31–34: Jesus was baptized. If you compare the parallel passage in Matthew’s Gospel (3:16), you find that when Jesus was baptized, "the heavens were opened" and the Spirit descended upon him. Obviously, this was not because Jesus needed to be baptized. In fact, John the Baptist noted that he needed to be baptized by Jesus (see Matt. 3:14). Jesus was baptized in order "fulfill all righteousness" and "to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins" (cf. Matt. 3:15; Luke 1:77). In other words, Jesus demonstrably showed us the way the heavens would be opened to us so that the Holy Spirit would descend upon us—through baptism.
• John 2:1–11: Jesus performed his first miracle. He transformed water into wine. Notice Jesus used water from "six stone jars . . . for the Jewish rites of purification." According to the Septuagint as well as the New Testament these purification waters were called baptismoi (see Num. 19:9–19; cf. Mark 7:4). We know that Old Testament rites, sacrifices, etc. were only "a shadow of the good things to come" (Heb. 10:1). They could never take away sins. This may well be why John specifies "six" stone jars—to denote imperfection, or "a human number" (cf. Rev. 13:18). It is interesting to note that Jesus transformed these Old Testament baptismal waters into wine—a symbol of New Covenant perfection (see Joel 3:18; Matt. 9:17).
• John 3:22: Immediately after Jesus’ "born again" discourse to Nicodemus, what does he do? He baptizes. This is the only time in Scripture we find Jesus actually baptizing.
• John 4:1–2: Jesus’ disciples then begin to baptize at Jesus’ command. (Note: John 4:1–2 appears to be a further clarification of 3:22. But it is unclear. It appears to say that Jesus only baptized his disciples and then they baptized everyone else. Some hold it to say Jesus never baptized at all.)

In summary, Jesus was baptized, transformed the "baptismal" waters, and then gave his famous "born again" discourse. He then baptized before commissioning the apostles to go out and baptize. To deny Jesus was teaching us about baptism in John 3:3–5 is to ignore the clear biblical context.

Moreover, John 3:5 is not describing two events; it describes one event. The text does not say "unless one is born of water and then born again of the Spirit . . . " It says "unless one is born of water and Spirit . . ." If we hearken back to the Lord’s own baptism in John 1 and Matthew 3, we notice that when our Lord was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended simultaneously upon him. This was one event, involving both water and the Spirit. And so it is with our baptism. If we obey God in being baptized—that’s our part of the deal—we can count on God to "open the heavens" for us concurrently and give us the Holy Spirit.

And finally, it would be anachronistic to read into Jesus’ use of "water" to mean physical birth in John’s Gospel. In fact, John had just used a word to refer to physical birth in John 1:12–13, but it wasn’t "water:" "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John here tells us that we are not made children of God by birth ("of blood"), or by our own attempts whether they be through our lower nature ("of the flesh") or even through the higher powers of our soul ("the will of man"). Rather, we must be born of God, or by God’s power. Notice John refers to natural birth colloquially as "of blood," not "of water."


Washing of Water by the Word

It is perhaps an even greater stretch to claim that the "water" of John 3:3–5 represents the word of God. At least with the amniotic fluid argument, you have mention of "birth" in the immediate context. However, a Protestant will sometimes refer to Ephesians 5:25–26 and a few other texts to make this point: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word . . ."

"See?" he may say, "The ‘washing of water’ is here equated to ‘the word’ that cleanses us." If you couple this text with Jesus’ words in John 15:3—"You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you"—the claim is made, "the water" of John 3:5 would actually refer to the word of God rather than baptism. And finally, he might add Romans 10:9–10 to the mix: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (KJV).

Though John 3:3–5 does not explicitly say man is born again by accepting Jesus, some Protestants connect all of these verses together and conclude that the Bible teaches we are saved or "born again" by professing faith in Jesus, not through baptism.


The Catholic Response

Both Catholics and Protestants agree that the word of God is said to "save us" and "cleanse us" inasmuch as it is an instrument used by God to bring his salvation to us that he won for us on the cross. Catholics and Protestants also agree, however, that more is needed than just the word of God for man to be saved. For Protestants, the salvation promised by God’s word is communicated through the individual profession of faith, so that is when a man is "born again." For Catholics, it is through faith and baptism; more specifically, it is through baptism that a man is "born again." The question is: What does the Bible say?

First, confessing Christ is certainly an essential part of the process of salvation. Romans 10:9–10 clearly teaches the one who believes and confesses his faith in Christ will be saved. But it is important to note that Scripture uses this same word—salvation—in various forms to describe many other things man must do in order "to be saved." The one who "believes and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). The one who "endures to the end shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22). Indeed, the very same words used by Paul in Romans 10:10, translated as "unto salvation" in the Douay-Rheims Bible (Greek eis soterian), are used to teach Christians we must ". . . long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation" (1 Pet. 2:2). They are also used to challenge Christians to repent of their sins: "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation" (2 Cor. 7:10). The fact that we must repent, be baptized, grow, confess Christ, and endure until the end in order to be saved indicates salvation is a process. There is no doubt that Paul was speaking of part of this process in Romans 10:9–10. However, there is nothing in that text that would lead us to believe he is speaking of how a person is born again.

This leads us to the most important point. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that Jesus’ words—unless one is born anew (or, again)—speak of man’s initial entrance into the body of Christ through God’s grace. The texts mentioned above by Protestants do not necessarily refer to the initial grace of salvation. What does the Bible teach is the instrument whereby one first enters into Christ? This would be precisely what we are talking about when we speak of being "born again." The good news is Scripture makes it abundantly clear: We are incorporated into the Body of Christ through baptism.

• Romans 6:3–4: Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
• Galatians 3:27: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
• 1 Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit (see also Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and Col. 2:11–13).

If baptism is the way the unsaved are brought into Christ, no wonder Christ spoke of being "born of water and spirit." Baptism is the instrument of new birth according to the New Testament.


Spirit vs. Water

Many Fundamentalists will claim we are confusing spiritual baptism with water baptism. Again, they would say, water baptism does not save you. And they will often point to 1 Corinthians 12:13, quoted above, to "prove" their point. Notice, they say, the text teaches it is the Spirit who baptizes us into Christ, not a man!

The Catholic Church agrees that it is the Holy Spirit incorporates us into Christ, just as it is the Holy Spirit who "convince[s] the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment," according to John 16:8. But the Holy Spirit uses human instruments to convey the message. "How shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14). The Bible certainly teaches that baptism is the Holy Spirit’s instrument to bring humanity into the Body of Christ as we have seen. But because God uses human beings to baptize, this does not mean it is any less the work of the Spirit through them.

As far as baptism saving us, the Bible could hardly be plainer. In Acts 2:38, St. Peter declared: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." In Acts 22:16, Ananias announced to St. Paul who had already professed faith in Jesus as Lord in verse 10: ". . . rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name." And 1 Peter 3:20–21 records these plain words: ". . . in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ." According to the Bible, baptism is not the mere removal of dirt from the body, but Christ’s instrument in purging our conscience from sin. That is what being "born-again" is all about!

[NotFinishedYet]

Wow, Terry, this was actually kinda confusing to me. Maybe I'm not "coffee'd" enough this morning and am misunderstanding. Every Evangelical and Fundamentalist church I've ever attended (and there's been a share of them) place an extremely high importance on water baptism for salvation. To the point where I know many evanel/fundies who would tell you that you aren't "saved" unless you've been baptized..... no matter what the Spirit may be doing in you.

Now they might argue with the Catholics whether it must be full immersion vs. sprinkling, but I can't say that I know an Evangel/Fundie group that doesn't stand firm on baptism. Am I misreading this or do you know of groups that teach this?

[CatholicCrusader]

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

Wow, Terry, this was actually kinda confusing to me. Maybe I'm not "coffee'd" enough this morning and am misunderstanding. Every Evangelical and Fundamentalist church I've ever attended (and there's been a share of them) place an extremely high importance on water baptism for salvation. To the point where I know many evanel/fundies who would tell you that you aren't "saved" unless you've been baptized..... no matter what the Spirit may be doing in you.

Well, since there is such a wide range of beliefs in the protestant world, this article obviously does not address them all. But, a signifigant percentage of protestants (Fundamentalists if you like) do express the view referred to here by Mr. Staples.

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

Now they might argue with the Catholics whether it must be full immersion vs. sprinkling, but I can't say that I know an Evangel/Fundie group that doesn't stand firm on baptism. Am I misreading this or do you know of groups that teach this?

I have seen this view expressed by many people in more than one forum. Regarding the churches you have attended, I'd be willing to bet that even though they believe baptism is important they would not say that it is the actual means/method by which one is born again. I'd bet a paycheck that they'd tell you that you become a Christian and "born again" FIRST, and then after that event is when you should get baptised. Yes?

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Well, since there is such a wide range of beliefs in the protestant world, this article obviously does not address them all. But, a signifigant percentage of protestants (Fundamentalists if you like) do express the view referred to here by Mr. Staples.

Churches that I've been to that teach that baptismal regeneration (water baptism saves you): Disciples of Christ (fundie), Church of Christ (fundie), United Pentacostal (evangel) and the Jesus only/ Oneness churches. Others who do are some Lutheran and Episcopal ones. I think also it's taught in SDA, JW and Mormonism (Jesse, you here?).

I have seen this view expressed by many people in more than one forum. Regarding the churches you have attended, I'd be willing to bet that even though they believe baptism is important they would not say that it is the actual means/method by which one is born again. I'd bet a paycheck that they'd tell you that you become a Christian and "born again" FIRST, and then after that event is when you should get baptised. Yes?

No. The fundie/evangel/oneness ones I use to go to taught that you weren't born again until you were baptized. That it was at that physical cleansing God's spirit was regenerated within you. Many of them did immediate baptism upon profession of Christ, others you had to wait for your 'salvation" until baptism could be done. Hmmm.... I don't remember what happened if you died in the meantime. Maybe John would know as his church path was similar to mine.

I no longer see baptism as a mode of salvation though.

[CatholicCrusader]

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

Churches that I've been to that teach that baptismal regeneration (water baptism saves you): Disciples of Christ (fundie), Church of Christ (fundie), United Pentacostal (evangel) and the Jesus only/ Oneness churches..... ....The fundie/evangel/oneness ones I use to go to taught that you weren't born again until you were baptized.........

Really.
Interesting.

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

.......I no longer see baptism as a mode of salvation though.

Ahhh. Then this article is for YOU.

Maybe this one too: The Necessity of Baptism

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Really.
Interesting.

I think you'd be surprised, Terry, at the actual amount of commonality between Catholic and Protestant belief. The items of real contention are very few (IMO, church ***** that I am). But where the disagreements are, they are huge.

Ahhh. Then this article is for YOU.

gonna take a lot to get me to go backwards in my beliefs! But, don't give up hope: all things are possible with God.

[Amadeus]

The two primary groups to which I have belonged, the Roman Catholic Church and UPC, of course, both stressed the importance and necessity of water baptism.

While no longer being an active member of those two groups, I still believe that a person needs water baptism since Jesus went that way Himself, at least, as an example. Shouldn't we, wherever and whenever possible, follow His example? Even though some might say that Jesus didn't actually need it, He, Himself, felt it was needed. I feel like He did need it because it was part of His Father's plan. Should we ever take shortcuts which will bypass things that are in God's plan? If God put it in the plan, who are we to remove it or discount it as unnecessary?

I know that the Catholic Church has a contingency or alternative plan for those who are drawn to the Lord and repent, but die physically before they are able to be baptized in the water. Whether or not others including the UPC have a written exception to the need for water baptism, I do not know or recall, but isn't God the only One who needs to satisfied with what is in our hearts?

I would therefore say that once you have been drawn to the Lord, you should everything that you can to do all that you see to be in God's plan for you. For me that would include baptism in water.

John,

[SeraphimH]

Baptism is the entry into the Holy Church. It was commanded by our Savior, and has always been understood to be the entry of a believer into the Christian Life in the Holy Church: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost : Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (St. Matthew 28:19-20).

Baptism is not only the entry for the believer into the church; it also washes him clean of all sins prior to his holy baptism, no matter how grievous and frequent they were. Here he must remember the admonition the Lord gave to the paralytic, whom He healed of not only his physical infirmity, but of his sins also: "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee". (St. John 5:14).

We believe this because baptism is a complete rebirth, where the old man, with his sinful inclinations, dies, and is reborn in the Spirit. Our Lord said: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5).

Baptism is necessary for our salvation. We can't begin our journeys in the Christian life toward salvation without it. We baptize all that wish to enter the Church, we baptize our children as babies because the Holy Spirit is not to be denied them either. Adults wishing to be baptized into the Orthodox Church must undergo a catechumenate, usually 6 months to a year of study, prayer, and counsel, so that they understand the importance of the life and vows they're entering into through their baptism. It's that important to us.

It's a commandment of the Lord. Is there any reason to question it?

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

I no longer see baptism as a mode of salvation though.

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and that is a gift of God, not of ourselves, lest any man should boast." A believer will follow God's commands and be baptized among other things, but it does not provide salvation in my opinion.

[CatholicCrusader]

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

"For by faith are you saved, through grace, and that is a gift of God, not of ourselves, lest any man should boast." A believer will follow God's commands and be baptized among other things, but it does not provide salvation in my opinion.

No one said it did. But, what it DOES do is:

1) Wash away original sin and cause one to be born again
2) Enter one into the covanant Family of God, just a circumcision entered one into the previous OT covenant

Therefore it is neccessary. But does it guarantee salvation? No. Nothing does.