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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Justification by faith?

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  #1  
Old 11-30-2008, 09:17 PM
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Default Justification by faith?

For those of you who haven't read my introduction, I'm a kind of a Christian mutt.
I grew up protestant, but, have worshipped in the Catholic Church for 23 or 24 years.
I love both and will not argue with either. I've never converted to Catholicism because I still have problems with Marian Doctrine and as a matter of conscience, can't. Don't take that to mean I don't love and respect Mary, I do. I just see no scriptural evidence that suggests she is our intercessor, and alot of scripture that says that Christ is.
That being said, convince the Catholic in me that we recieve justification by faith.
Now before you throw Galations 3:24 at me, I'll warn you that I'm going to ask you to read Galations 3:24 - 5:6 and get back to me. One verse is not a complete doctrine.
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:22 AM
gruvEdude
 
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

God made us to be and only accepts that which is perfect. If you put works into the salvation equation, just one mistake makes a reject of you. It is our faith alone in the Lamb of God that gives us holiness.
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Old 12-01-2008, 06:45 AM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelowlyfisherman View Post
For those of you who haven't read my introduction, I'm a kind of a Christian mutt.
I grew up protestant, but, have worshipped in the Catholic Church for 23 or 24 years.
I love both and will not argue with either. I've never converted to Catholicism because I still have problems with Marian Doctrine and as a matter of conscience, can't. Don't take that to mean I don't love and respect Mary, I do. I just see no scriptural evidence that suggests she is our intercessor, and alot of scripture that says that Christ is.
That being said, convince the Catholic in me that we recieve justification by faith.
Now before you throw Galations 3:24 at me, I'll warn you that I'm going to ask you to read Galations 3:24 - 5:6 and get back to me. One verse is not a complete doctrine.
How about yyou telling us what you understand justification by faith means, and the Scriptures that back it up ?
Then maybe we all can go from there ?
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

The authors of the last series of posts are apparently not aware of the joint declaration on Justification by Faith published to the world on October 31, 1999, reflecting a consesus between the Lutherans and Roman Catholics after years of committee work. As I have said elsewhere on this web site the residual feeling among those that participated in the effort was that those two segments of Christianity (and others allied on either side of the argument) were talking past one another for centuries. The document does not make for easy reading given the theological termanology utilized.

The overall emphasis, as I have also said before, is on GRACE which is the necessary foundation for our entire spiritual life. I will suppliment this post by further input by our ministers in due course. For the moment, however, you should realize the remarkable achievement reached on October 31,1999. Thank you.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

The lowlyfisherman,

It is often said in Catholic circles that Christ and His mother Mary are the new Adam and Eve respectively. Elsewhere on the web site there have been discussions regarding the subject of whether Mary could have said No. In consenting to the Incarnation, she was clearly the first among us to cooperate with God's Grace in implementing His plan for salvation which obviously began with His divine and only begotten Son becoming one of us for the two-fold purpose of atoning for the sins of fallen humanity and teaching us love by example. The climax of that two-fold mission took place on Calvary.

There is no question that there is only one mediator between God and man i.e. Jesus Christ. There is also no question that precisely because of His divinity He was uniquely qualified to atone for the sins of mankind. Mary is often said to intercede for us with her divine son who in turn mediates with His Father. Properly understood, there is really no division among Christians regarding the uniqueness of Christ.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

lowlyfisherman:
I had a Catholic father and Protestant mother--I have been in all sorts of Protestant denominations. Justification by faith is also espoused in Ephesians 2:8-9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: Not of works,
lest any man should boast." Salvation is a free gift, not one of our best works can save us. Only trusting in His perfect grace frees us from the bondage of sin and eternal death.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

Its funny that, I have been staunchly, "justification by faith", in my approach until just acouple of years ago, when the Spirit began showing me the other side of the story. Ironically, Dr J. Vernon McGhee got the ball rolling on the bus. He said, "The church is like a sign that says 'Santa Barbara' 100 miles. You can sit on that sign all day and you will not be any closer to Santa Barbara no matter how much faith you put in that sign. You're going to have to start moving in the direction that sign is pointing, if you ever want to reach Santa Barbara".
Then he read from Hebrews 11 about the things that Holy men DID by faith. I began to question, what if Abraham had believed that God would give him the Holy Land, but, had never actually moved there to take posession of it?
Of Course, then I remembered what James said, "Faith with-out works is dead","Be doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves", and" Show me your faith with out your works, and I will show you my faith by my works".
Then Jesus Himself says in Matthew 7:24,"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine and does them...".
I become more and more convinced that a large part of the reason that our once blessed country is in its present condition is because many of us who are called by the Lords name are very comfortable in our faith and have forgotten that faith and works go hand in hand.
I also believe that works with out faith are dead. The 2 can't be seperated in Christian life.
I enjoyed reading your responses. I'm going to like it here.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olsen View Post
The lowlyfisherman,

It is often said in Catholic circles that Christ and His mother Mary are the new Adam and Eve respectively. Elsewhere on the web site there have been discussions regarding the subject of whether Mary could have said No. In consenting to the Incarnation, she was clearly the first among us to cooperate with God's Grace in implementing His plan for salvation which obviously began with His divine and only begotten Son becoming one of us for the two-fold purpose of atoning for the sins of fallen humanity and teaching us love by example. The climax of that two-fold mission took place on Calvary.

There is no question that there is only one mediator between God and man i.e. Jesus Christ. There is also no question that precisely because of His divinity He was uniquely qualified to atone for the sins of mankind. Mary is often said to intercede for us with her divine son who in turn mediates with His Father. Properly understood, there is really no division among Christians regarding the uniqueness of Christ.
I've never questioned that we all share the vision of Jesus as the intercesor.
I really tried to embrase Marian Doctrine. I prayed about it constantly for years.
Then I read 1Kings 2:13-25, and I believe it is a picture of Christ and Mary.
Adonijah asked Bathsheba to intercede on his behalf with Solomon. The short story is, Adonijah was put to death by Solomon that day.
I am certain that Jesus knows of my love and admiration for his mother (and mine) and this will in no way harm our relationship.
That relationship is the key, though. My Brother and Lord loves me and he wants to hear from me. If I need something, I'm going directly to the source. Even If I don't need anything, I just love him and enjoy being in his company. Anywhere he is, thats where I want to be.

Last edited by thelowlyfisherman : 12-01-2008 at 08:51 PM.
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2008, 09:16 PM
gruvEdude
 
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Thumbs up Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ICT7133 View Post
How about you telling us what you understand justification by faith means, and the Scriptures that back it up ?
Then maybe we all can go from there ?
Although using old words which God's is never (and nobody living is correctly quoted so), PastorC points out the best reference with Ephesians 2:8-9.

Of what value are works which we are planned for then? 1 Corinthians 3:15, NLT: But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

Not for salvation, but for reward.
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  #10  
Old 12-05-2008, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

Hey Olsen

Dr. Olson here. Only one letter off between our names! I'm the Norwegian variety here.

I disagree with your summarization of the Catholic Lutheran agreement. You wrote: "For the moment, however, you should realize the remarkable achievement reached on October 31,1999. Thank you."

I think it was a horrible compromise to the doctrine of justification. The Catholics never compromised a bit on their two stage justification by faith plus works. The Lutherans surrendered what little strength they had in holding on to the biblical view of justification by God's grace - alone; by faith - alone; in Christ - alone!

The remarkable achievement only paves the way for the future world church leader to get the religious power base with his economic and political power bases.

I agree with Martin Luther -
This doctrine is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour. . . .Whoever departs from the article of justification does not know God and is an idolater.... If the article of justification is lost, all Christian doctrine is lost at the same time. . . . When the article of justification has fallen, everything has fallen.... Of this article nothing may be yielded or conceded.

Thank God for imputed righteousness!
Dr. Olson
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