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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

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  #31  
Old 06-07-2020, 12:23 AM
TrevorL's Avatar
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Default Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

Greetings again Selene,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selene View Post
As for the statute of the bronze fiery serpent.....in the first place it was God Himself who told Moses to fashioned the statue of the bronze serpent; therefore, God never had a problem with people making statues.
Numbers 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.”
And you're correct. The statue that Moses built was a Seraphim angel. Seraphim means "fiery serpent." And the Hebrew word used in that biliblical verse is "Seraph"
God told Moses to build a statue of a Seraphim angel so that when the Israelites look upon it, they would be healed.
There is no mention in the following that the serpent on the pole represented a Seraphim angel:
Numbers 21:4–9 (KJV): 4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent [u]fiery serpents]/u] among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
There are two words used above interchangeably, one translated “fiery serpent” and the other “serpent”. There is certainly a connection between Numbers 21 and Isaiah 6, but I suggest that you cannot impose the concept of an Angel in Numbers 21. You are superimposing your understanding of Isaiah 6 on Numbers 21, but Numbers 21 does not accommodate your conclusion as it is speaking of serpents not Angels.
Quote:
The statues that Catholics have in the churches are honored, but never worshiped. Many people accuse Catholics of idol worship because of those statues, but they are gravely mistaken.
Some parades in poorer countries appear to consider that the central object in the parade has some Divine influence and power.
Quote:
Mary is our mother, Jesus is our brother and all the holy saints in Heaven are our brothers and sisters.
Mary has not adopted us and this is RCC superstition. Jesus is in heaven. All the others including Mary (despite the relatively recent Papal proclamations about her bodily ascent) are dead and buried, awaiting the Resurrection and Judgement.

Kind regards
Trevor

Last edited by TrevorL : 06-07-2020 at 12:27 AM.
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  #32  
Old 06-07-2020, 07:39 AM
Selene's Avatar
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Default Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
Greetings again Selene, There is no mention in the following that the serpent on the pole represented a Seraphim angel:
Numbers 21:4–9 (KJV): 4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent [u]fiery serpents]/u] among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
There are two words used above interchangeably, one translated “fiery serpent” and the other “serpent”. There is certainly a connection between Numbers 21 and Isaiah 6, but I suggest that you cannot impose the concept of an Angel in Numbers 21. You are superimposing your understanding of Isaiah 6 on Numbers 21, but Numbers 21 does not accommodate your conclusion as it is speaking of serpents not Angels.
I just showed you scripture in which God told Moses to make a statue of a fiery serpent (Seraphim), because you accused the Catholic Church of idolatry due to the statues we have in our Church. Yet, you have nothing to say about that? Are you not even curious.....knowing that God commanded the Israelites not to make any statues and then turn around and told Moses to make a statue? God is not a hypocrite. He's not going to command his people not to make statues and then turn around and break His own command. Yet, you have nothing to say about God telling Moses to make a statue of a fiery serpent (Seraphim)?

I also provided you a website showing that the Jewish people believed that the Seraphim and Cheribum are angels. The Catholics and Orthodox Christians also believe they're angels. We are more than 2000 years ahead of you, and you're only trying to figure out what they are.

Quote:
Mary has not adopted us and this is RCC superstition. Jesus is in heaven. All the others including Mary (despite the relatively recent Papal proclamations about her bodily ascent) are dead and buried, awaiting the Resurrection and Judgement.

Kind regards
Trevor
Where in my post did I ever say that Mary adopted us? That is a false assumption. Rather than asking Catholics how and why we view Mary as our mother, you automatically make a false assumption. Mary never adopted us. It was Jesus who said that Mary is our mother.

Last edited by Selene : 06-07-2020 at 07:43 AM.
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  #33  
Old 06-07-2020, 07:54 AM
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Default Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorL View Post
Mary has not adopted us and this is RCC superstition
You are lying again. If you cannot argue without lying then you should not be here.

Now, here is the fact:

John 19:26-27: When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

We are ALL the disciple who Jesus loves. We are ALL the disciple who took her into his home.
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- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #34  
Old 06-07-2020, 08:07 AM
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Arrow Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

The existence of angels - a truth of faith

328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls "angels" is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.

Who are they?

329 St. Augustine says: "'Angel' is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is 'spirit'; if you seek the name of their office, it is 'angel': from what they are, 'spirit', from what they do, 'angel.'"188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God. Because they "always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven" they are the "mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word".189

330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_c...m/p1s2c1p5.htm

188 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 103,1,15: PL 37,1348.
189 Mt 18:10; Ps 103:20.
190 Cf. Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3891; Lk 20:36; Dan 10:9-12.
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- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #35  
Old 06-07-2020, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

Greetings again Selene,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selene View Post
I just showed you scripture in which God told Moses to make a statue of a fiery serpent (Seraphim), because you accused the Catholic Church of idolatry due to the statues we have in our Church. Yet, you have nothing to say about that?
God instructed Moses to make the Serpent of Brass, but he never instructed the RCC to make statues.
Quote:
I also provided you a website showing that the Jewish people believed that the Seraphim and Cheribum are angels. The Catholics and Orthodox Christians also believe they're angels. We are more than 2000 years ahead of you, and you're only trying to figure out what they are.
I do not consider the opinion of various Jewish commentators as authoritative.
Quote:
Where in my post did I ever say that Mary adopted us? That is a false assumption. Rather than asking Catholics how and why we view Mary as our mother, you automatically make a false assumption. Mary never adopted us. It was Jesus who said that Mary is our mother.
Whatever your assessment, there is a large difference between the RCC position on Mary and my belief that she was the mother of Jesus and not our mother, also the mother of other children by Joseph, and that she is both dead and buried awaiting the resurrection and is not in heaven. The RCC worshipping of Mary is evident to any observer, and an example of this is in the RCC belief of the Assumption of Mary:
In 1950 Pope Pius XII invoked papal infallibility to define the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus:
“We proclaim and define it to be a dogma revealed by God that the immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever virgin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven.”

I have considered sufficiently the RCC faith and reject it. I believe in the clarity of the Scriptures, and hence our individual responsibility to determine the message of God's word, not dependence on priestly interpretations. Rather than discussing the many errors of the RCC, I am interested in any further aspects of the Seraphim, especially in Isaiah 6 and any comments on Isaiah 6 in general, for example Isaiah 6:9-10 which is quoted a number of times in the NT.

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #36  
Old 06-07-2020, 08:37 AM
Selene's Avatar
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Default Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
You are lying again. If you cannot argue without lying then you should not be here.

Now, here is the fact:

John 19:26-27: When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

We are ALL the disciple who Jesus loves. We are ALL the disciple who took her into his home.
Thank you! Well said!
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  #37  
Old 06-07-2020, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: What Does Isa 6:1-13 Mean To All ?

MOD HAT

Thred closed because of Rule 8 violation by a member multiple times
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Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.

Last edited by whitetiger : 06-07-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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