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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Who is our Mother

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Old 05-14-2017, 11:48 AM
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Default Who is our Mother

On this Mothers day, I am thinking of a topic we were discussing a month or more previous about Jesus while on the cross declaring who his Mother and his brother is.
At the time, the discussions were so heated, It seemed to me to continue would be fruitless that an answer might just be over looked, but on this Mothers day, perhaps there may be some fruit.
I did pass this answer on at the time to someone, for we must share these things.

My intention is not to recreate an argument, But to answer a lingering question while also wishing a Happy Mothers day to two separate Mothers and differentiating Mothers as it is supposed to be in Scripture and I believe somewhat misunderstood. Consider that this is an ambiguous but scriptural answer to the lingering question.

So Here we go.
God commands that we honor our mothers and fathers Ephesians 6:1-3 as an example, Now I am sure for some that is an easy task and yet there are some that have such horrid lives, they wonder why, but here are at least a couple reasons,

The first and foremost is he declares they are whom he used to bring you into this life. (Psalm 127:3 Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward.) So often people think their existence has began with birth but yet we are taught in scripture over and over, God knew us first, before, we were formed, before we were in the womb..

Second, God separates birth Mother and Spiritual Mother,
so when reading Scripture you might consider that/these understandings.

Jesus was teaching that in the following Scripture.

Luke 8:19-21 (KJV)
19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
His actual Mother and Brothers try to approach him
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he was told that his actual Mother and Brethren try and approach him
21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. And he answers whom he considers are Mother and brethren.

This is confirmed below

Matthew 12:46-50 (KJV)
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. He defines even more for the teaching

Now, here is what Is meant by his Brethren.. some weeks ago, there was a a question about who Jesus was speaking to while on the cross.. the below scripture was the basis but the question was about whether he has actual brothers. Why would his mother not Be with them as tradition would normally be..

John 19:26-27 (KJV)
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

The short answer is, The Disciple Jesus always declared he loved was John, although he never states it, through elimination of naming the others while he uses the phrase in reference to john, John is the one it points to. Example, (John 21:7, John 20:2).

As for the statement of His actual brethren, if backtracked, the time line to this scripture, His Brethren(kinsfolk) believed him not, so he went alone ..

Joh 7:1, After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee: for He did not desire to walk in Jewry, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him
.
Joh 7:2, Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles [booths] was near.

Joh 7:3, His brethren [the kinsfolk] therefore said unto Him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, in order that Thy disciples also may be spectators of the works that Thou doest.

Joh 7:4, For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If Thou do these things, shew Thyself to the world.

Joh 7:5, ( For not even did His brethren [the kinsfolk] believe in Him ).

Joh 7:6, Therefore Jesus said unto them, "My seasonable moment is not yet come: but your own time is alway ready.

Joh 7:7, The world is not able to hate you; but Me it hateth, because I bear witness concerning it, that the works thereof are evil."

Joh 7:8, " Go ye up [with others] unto the feast: I go not up yet unto the feast; for My time has not yet been fulfilled ."

Joh 7:9, When He had said these things unto them, He abode still in Galilee.

Joh 7:10, But when His brethren were gone up, then went He also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

If you read the above Scripture, in my opinion, this could be read as Jesus is in discussion with his brethren/kinsfolk, about conforming with the Jews/tradition/teaching, but he is trying to explain to them why he must do the things he is doing. They don't believe in what his is doing, (his ministry or teaching) so he must even deceive them to settle the matter. (They can not understand yet but will, therefore there is no fruit in arguing) which led to what he said while on the cross a few days later..

My opinion of this understanding is, Mothers Play an important role.

Birth Mothers fulfill Gods wishes as well as Spiritual Mothers.

This seems to be the teachings of Jesus. That is Our Father Gods will.


Dan

Last edited by iamdan : 05-14-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Who is our Mother

Well done. It seems that we are of like understanding on this issue. Considering, first, Mark 12:17 and Romans 13:1-7 should provide all of us with a principle of this post: Honoring parents. Compare Luke 14:26.

Authorities and parents are to be honored, obeyed, and respected as long as such obedience does not interfere with Godís laws and honor.

As you indicated, Matthew 12:50 and Luke 8:21 are good teaching scriptures for the point that we should be loving family members (mothers) less than we love God.
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Who is our Mother

iamdan: "So often people think their existence has began with birth but yet we are taught in scripture over and over, God knew us first, before, we were formed, before we were in the womb.."

Good point! In the Palestine of late antiquity there is no evidence of belief in reincarnation until the Jewish Christian heretical group the Elkesaites from around 100 AD. But belief in the preexistence of the soul appears to have been a standard Jewish belief. Josephus attributes this belief to the Essenes and Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 (in the Catholic OT) teaches that we can be born with a "good" preexistent soul. Indeed 2 Enoch 23 teaches that all souls were created at the foundation of the universe.

But perhaps the most interesting example is the disciples' implicit acceptance of this belief in John 9:1-2. The disciples ask Jesus if the man was born blind because of his own sins (or his parents' sins). Their question implies the possibility that the blind man may have been born that way because of sins in his preexistent state. Jesus explains that the man was rather born blind so that God may be glorified through his healing. But notice that Jesus does not dispute the assumption of their question that the soul preexists.

Dan, you make some good points about spiritual motherhood. But here is where you and I differ;
iamdan: "Why would his mother not Be with them [His earthly brothers] as tradition would normally be."

In fact, His natural "brothers" did in fact care for Mary. In the prayerful lead-up to the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, Mary is found to be with Jesus' brothers as we would expect (Acts 1:14) and not with John.

iamdan: "John 19:26-27 (KJV)
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."
"The short answer is, The Disciple Jesus always declared he loved was John, although he never states it."

I have a 90+ page outline of a wannabe book entitled James: the Beloved Disciple of the Fourth Gospel. In it I examine every allusion to an anonymous disciple in John and demonstrate how in each case Jesus' brother James perfectly fits the narrative. I won't derail your post by defending this claim in great depth, but will restrict myself to the text you cite in John 19:25-27. The crucified Jesus refers to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" as His mother's son and to Mary as the mother of this unnamed disciple. The natural interpretation of His references is that the Beloved Disciple is Jesus' brother (specifically James, I argue). Let me offer just 3 of the many arguments for this identification:

(1) The eldest son would be expected to care for his widowed mother and, as already noted, we find Jesus' brothers present with Mary in Acts 1:14.
(2) The Gospel's first use of the phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is found in John 13:24-25. How can this expression be explained? Didn't Jesus love all His disciples? Recognizing that in Hebrew and Greek the name "James" is actually "Jacob," I have concluded that the phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is a technical title adapted from Psalm 47:4-5: "He [God] chose our heritage for us, the pride of JACOB WHOM HE LOVES. God has ASCENDED with a shout."

2 facts support this source of inspiration for the phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loved:"
(1) John's circumlocution for James begins in John 13, in a context that stresses Jesus' journey of Ascent (13:1; 20:17) as does Psalm 47:4-5.
(2) In John 13:18 Jesus has just quoted a verse (41:9) near Psalm 47:4-5.

In my manuscript I argue at length that John "the Elder" (2 John 1; 3 John
1), not John the son of Zebedee, composed and edited the Gospel that bears his name, using as his primary source, Jesus' brother James. Papias identifies John the Elder as a disciple who was not 1 of the 12. The 2nd half of my wannabe book argues that the Fourth Gospel was written at Pella, to which the Jerusalem church fled when Roman legions were closing in on Jerusalem and a prophetic oracle in the church summoned them to Pella. James had just been martyred and in Pellan literature James is revered above Peter and Paul as the past .leader of their church.

Last edited by MadHermit : 05-08-2018 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 05-11-2018, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Who is our Mother

As an adopted son of the Father, the Blessed Virgin is my spiritual mother. Jesus is a spiritual brother (in addition to being Lord and Savior).
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

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Old 08-01-2020, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: Who is our Mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
", , the Blessed Virgin is my spiritual mother, ,"
What is this thing you fear when an immovable truth comes your way that interrupts that century-train you so wish to defend?

It appears CCís drill is, Read > Turn > Traditionally Oppose

Well, what else would you deem this refusal?

When Jesus said His spiritual mother are all those who hear and do, a public rebuke to any biological elevation to being His ďmotherĒ is squarely de-elevated.

Biological man canít change that though a long bewitching consortium may prove successful. Otherwise, Iím not sure this hoop is worth trying to discredit the Masterís increasingly clear precept.

Buyer beware!

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Old 08-01-2020, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Who is our Mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
As an adopted son of the Father, the Blessed Virgin is my spiritual mother. Jesus is a spiritual brother (in addition to being Lord and Savior).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
What is this thing you fear when an immovable truth comes your way that interrupts that century-train you so wish to defend?
I speak truth.

You speak lies and believe lies.

Thats your problem, not mine.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:52 AM
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Mary has universal spiritual motherhood
Authored By: Pope John Paul II
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/lib...otherhood-8295


MARY HAS UNIVERSAL SPIRITUAL MOTHERHOOD

Our Lady is mother of all humanity because she co-operated with faith, hope and charity Christ's work of restoring supernatural live to souls

Pope John Paul II

The Blessed Virgin, "having entered the Father's eternal kingdom, closer to her divine Son and thus closer to us all, can more effectively exercise in the Spirit the role of maternal intercession entrusted to her by divine Providence", the Holy Father said at the General Audience of Wednesday, 24 September, as he discussed Mary's motherhood in the order of grace. He went on to explain the meaning of the Marian titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix. Here is a translation of the Pope's catechesis, which was the 64th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

1. Mary is mother of humanity in the order of grace. The Second Vatican Council highlights this role of Mary, linking it to her co-operation in Christ's Redemption.

"In the designs of divine Providence, she was the gracious mother of the divine Redeemer here on earth, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord" (Lumen gentium, n. 61).

With these statements, the Constitution Lumen gentium wishes to give proper emphasis to the fact that the Blessed Virgin was intimately associated with Christ's redemptive work, becoming the Saviour's "generous associate", "in a singular way".

With the actions of any mother, from the most ordinary to the most demanding, Mary freely co-operated in the work of humanity's salvation in profound and constant harmony with her divine Son.

Our Lady's motherhood has universal scope

2. The Council also points out that Mary's co-operation was inspired by the Gospel virtues of obedience, faith, hope and charity, and was accomplished under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It also recalls that the gift of her universal spiritual motherhood stems precisely from this co-operation: associated with Christ in the work of Redemption, which includes the spiritual regeneration of humanity, she becomes mother of those reborn to new life.

In saying that Mary is "a mother to us in the order of grace" (cf. ibid.), the Council stresses that her spiritual motherhood is not limited to the disciples alone, as though the words spoken by Jesus on Calvary: "Woman, behold your son" (Jn 19:26), required a restrictive interpretation. Indeed, with these words the Crucified One established an intimate relationship between Mary and his beloved disciple, a typological figure of universal scope, intending to offer his Mother as Mother to all mankind.

On the other hand, the universal efficacy of the redeeming sacrifice and Mary's conscious co-operation with Christ's sacrificial offering does not allow any limitation of her motherly love.

Mary's universal mission is exercised in the context of her unique relationship with the Church. With her concern for every Christian, and indeed for every human creature, she guides the faith of the Church towards an ever deeper acceptance of God's Word, sustains her hope, enlivens her charity and fraternal communion and encourages her apostolic dynamism.

3. During her earthly life, Mary showed her spiritual motherhood to the Church for a very short time. Nonetheless, the full value of her role appeared after the Assumption and is destined to extend down the centuries to the end of the world. The Council expressly states: "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the Cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect" (Lumen gentium, n. 62).

Having entered the Father's eternal kingdom, closer to her divine Son and thus closer to us all, she can more effectively exercise in the Spirit the role of maternal intercession entrusted to her by divine Providence.

4. The heavenly Father wanted to place Mary close to Christ and in communion with him who can "save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them" (Heb 7:25): he wanted to unite to the Redeemer's intercession as a priest that of the Blessed Virgin as a mother. It is a role she carries out for the sake of those who are in danger and who need temporal favours and, especially, eternal salvation: "By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix" (Lumen gentium, n. 62).

These titles, suggested by the faith of the Christian people, help us better to understand the nature of the Mother of the Lord's intervention in the life of the Church and of the individual believer.

5. The title "Advocate" goes back to St Irenaeus. With regard to Eve's disobedience and Mary's obedience, he says that at the moment of the Annunciation "the Virgin Mary became the Advocate" of Eve (Haer. 5, 19, 1; PG 7, 1175-1176). In fact, with her "yes" she defended our first mother and freed her from the consequences of her disobedience, becoming the cause of salvation for her and the whole human race.

Mary exercises her role as "Advocate by co-operating both with the Spirit the Paraclete and with the One who interceded on the Cross for his persecutors (cf. Lk 23:34), whom John calls our "advocate with the Father" (1 Jn 2: 1). As a mother, she defends her children and protects them from the harm caused by their own sins.

Mary is close to those suffering or in danger

Christians call upon Mary as "Helper", recognizing her motherly love which sees her children's needs and is ready to come to their aid, especially when their eternal salvation is at stake.

The conviction that Mary is close to those who are suffering or in situations of serious danger has prompted the faithful to invoke her as "Benefactress". The same trusting certainty is expressed in the most ancient Marian prayer with the words: "We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin" (from the Roman Breviary).

As maternal Mediatrix, Mary presents our desires and petitions to Christ, and transmits the divine gifts to us, interceding continually on our behalf.

To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors the Holy Father said:

I greet the new students of the Venerable English College and pray that the Lord will bless them abundantly as they begin their studies.
I extend a cordial welcome to the various ecumenical groups present, especially to the Executive Committee of the World Methodist Council. Thankful to God for the progress made so far in our official dialogue, I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the Joint Commission in its current work. I send a special greeting to the General Secretary Dr Hale, who could not be here due to his wife's recent accident, and I pray for her prompt recovery.

I am so pleased to welcome the Delegation of the Disciples of Christ on the 20th anniversary of the dialogue between us. May the International Commission's continuing work on the theme of the Church's mission lead us steadily along the path towards ever greater unity.

I warmly greet the representatives of the Center of Christian-Jewish Understanding. I hope that your visit will further strengthen our mutual understanding and co-operation in the face of so many shared concerns.

Upon all the English-speaking visitors and pilgrims, especially those from England, Wales, Ireland, Nigeria, Australia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Japan and the United States, I invoke an abundance of divine grace and peace.
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

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Old 08-01-2020, 05:58 AM
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"Mary is our Mother." These are not just empty words. They mean rather that we recognize Mary for who she is and also for her role in the plan of God. That Mary was the mother of Jesus the God-Man is almost universally accepted among all Christians and probably many non-Christians as well. Therefore, in this small space, let us focus instead on her role in the life of the Church today. We will then be better able to explain why we love, revere, and honor her and also why we are thus lead to seek her intercession and protection.

Looking first at Scripture, the principal basis for the doctrine of Mary as Spiritual Mother of all humanity is found in the Gospel of John. In this scene, Mary is at Calvary at the foot of the Cross with John, the beloved disciple. John tells us, "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold your mother'" (John 19: 26-27). Throughout the Church's history, numerous popes, theologians, and writers have confirmed their belief that here John is symbolic of all humanity. In other words, that Jesus from the Cross gave His Mother to every human person for all time.

Our Lord said, "Behold your mother." He was not suggesting that Mary become our mother, but that Mary is our Mother. And to Mary He gave us as children. But, if this is true, how do we make theological sense of this relationship? Turning again to Scripture, we can best understand it by considering St. Paul's beautiful doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ (cf. Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 4:15). In this whole Body, St. Paul refers to Christ as the Head and the Church as the Body. Head and Body make up the entire and whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

Now, if we say that Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Head of the Body, then it must be that she gave birth to the entire Body since a true body cannot be separated. Thus, it would mean that she gave birth to the members as well. In giving physical birth to Jesus, we can say that Mary made it possible for us to receive spiritual life through Him. We were dead, and through Him we have come back to life. And it was Mary's "yes" at the Annunciation that made our rebirth possible. To question this is to question the plan of God. For it was He who decided from all eternity that it would be so. And the list of those who have believed it is almost endless.

Once we have established that Mary is our true Spiritual Mother, we must ask what this means for us in our everyday lives? What is a mother, anyway? What does a mother do? Why did God arrange it so that every human person would come into the world through a mother? There must be a reason. Does a mother simply give birth to a child only to abandon him or her? Of course she does not. A mother not only gives birth, but she also is given by God so that she might nurture, feed, teach, guide, and protect her child. God entrusts her with these tasks. In the human family, a mother is not optional. So too, in the spiritual family of the Mystical Body of Christ, Mary, our Mother is not optional.

Any person who studies the history of the early Christian Church will easily discover the solid witness of how lovingly and faithfully these first believers in Christ, and countless others who went after them down through the ages, turned confidently with love and devotion to the Mother of Jesus for protection, guidance, and assistance in their hours of gravest need. Why did they do this? It seems safe to assume they did so because they wished to obey Jesus. And, after all, she had given birth to Him, nurtured, fed, guided, and protected Him. If God allowed Himself to be born of her and chose her as His Mother, can we do anything but accept her as ours? To put our trust and confidence in her will always be pleasing to God because everything she does will always lead us closer to Him.

The Church has never claimed or taught that Mary is on an equal level with God. But, nonetheless, because we are her spiritual children, she looks tenderly on us and after us with a love so profound that we are moved to plead, "Oh Blessed Mother, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."


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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:12 AM
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:40 AM
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", , these first believers in Christ, and countless others who went after them down through the ages, turned confidently with love and devotion to the Mother of Jesus for protection, guidance, and assistance in their hours of gravest need. Why did they do this? It seems safe to assume they did so because they wished to obey Jesus.
Nope, the obedience is in a continuous shamble. Maybe you could direct the item out specifically as I did and not in bulk deflection as you did. If you are able?
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