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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Theology  > Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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  #1  
Old 10-15-2014, 01:45 PM
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Default Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Okay, folks, just a standard question I usually ask on the forums I visit.

First, I would ask the question "is this something that you have given thought to before?"

Secondly, give a brief description of your views concerning the New Birth.

This is one of my favorite questions, and usually brings about great discussion, as it covers a lot of ground. My favorite response was actually from a Pastor who asked..."Is this a trick question?"
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

The question to be asked and/or answered is what does it mean to be "born again (or born from above)? Is it not the point when Life really begins for a person? Before he receives the Life which Jesus is, is the person not dead in the eyes of God?

Look to the man named as a man after God's own heart: King David. Was King David [whose natural life ended long before Jesus was born in Bethlehem and thus also long before the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter 2] dead and lost in the eyes of God?
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
The question to be asked and/or answered is what does it mean to be "born again (or born from above)? Is it not the point when Life really begins for a person? Before he receives the Life which Jesus is, is the person not dead in the eyes of God?

Look to the man named as a man after God's own heart: King David. Was King David [whose natural life ended long before Jesus was born in Bethlehem and thus also long before the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter 2] dead and lost in the eyes of God?
In answer to this last question I would say...yes.

Might surprise you but the truth is that David died without receiving complete remission of sin. That does not mean that he was "lost" in the sense that he was headed to Hell, but we cannot deny that even one as notable as King David was in need of having His sins atoned for through the Blood of Christ.

In other words, by New Testament and New Covenant standards, I view David as a natural man until death. That does not discount the fact that David enjoyed the Old Testament Ministry of the Holy Spirit (which I view as distinctly different from the New Covenant Ministry). We know the Comforter's Ministry could not start until Christ returned to Heaven, therefore we should not ascribe it to the Old Testament periods.

As to my view of the New Birth, I see it as the culmination of the promises of God throughout Scripture. While we see partial fulfillment of the Spirit of God's everlasting presence in the Old Testament, we do not see a standard of everlasting indwelling. While we see remission of sins, we do not see completion (because the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins).

The clearest Old Testament passage concerning the Promise of the New Birth is found here:





Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Obviously given to Israel, we cannot forget God's promise to bless all families of the earth in the Abrahamic Covenant. Again, God's promises culminate in the New Covenant, entrance to being through the New Birth which coincides with the indwelling Spirit of God (as seen above), Who is our guarantee of salvation.

In John 1 we see we are born of God, and physical birth is excluded. In Titus we see this is the work of God:



Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;




Just as in Ezekial we see the transformation through cleansing and the indwelling presence of God.

I view all men to be born dead spiritually, that death having taken place in Adam. To be born again is the renewing of the relationship between God and man that was lost in the Fall.


God bless.
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  #4  
Old 10-16-2014, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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Originally Posted by STRanger View Post
Okay, folks, just a standard question I usually ask on the forums I visit.
Yes!

53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”


17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


These people were as "born again" as you will ever get.

Before Pentecost.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2014, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

The Valley of Dry Bones
37 The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
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  #6  
Old 10-16-2014, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
Yes!

53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up.

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”


17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


These people were as "born again" as you will ever get.

Before Pentecost.
Hello CinderAsh, pleased to meet you.

These occasions are of physical death and physical resurrection, not the new birth, which was promised under New Covenant conditions which were established through Christ, being brought about by His own blood/death.

We know that all that were resurrected before Christ were not glorified, as Christ Himself maintains the distinction of being the Firstborn from the dead:

Colossians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


1 Corinthians 15:20-23


20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.





The next scheduled glorification is, I believe, the Rapture.

Again, great to meet you, and thanks for joining in.


God bless.
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
The Valley of Dry Bones
37 The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

While I think it is a given that Israel, when restored, will certainly be born again, we understand this to be prophecy of that restoration. This still remains future for Israel on a National basis.


God bless.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

As Amadeus asked (& wasn’t answered) “The question to be asked and/or answered is what does it mean to be "born again (or born from above)?”


So here are two questions:

1. How does someone become “born again”?

2. What does being “born again” accomplish?

And perhaps a third:
What does it matter if the OT saints were not “born again”


It's no point batting scripture verses around if we haven't established we mean the same thing by being "born again".

Well, that's my thoughts.
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Old 10-16-2014, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post

The question to be asked and/or answered is what does it mean to be "born again (or born from above)? Is it not the point when Life really begins for a person? Before he receives the Life which Jesus is, is the person not dead in the eyes of God?

Look to the man named as a man after God's own heart: King David. Was King David [whose natural life ended long before Jesus was born in Bethlehem and thus also long before the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter 2] dead and lost in the eyes of God?
Quote:
STRanger: In answer to this last question I would say...yes.
So would I... at least according to time as it is reckoned by men!

Quote:
STRanger: Might surprise you but the truth is that David died without receiving complete remission of sin. That does not mean that he was "lost" in the sense that he was headed to Hell, but we cannot deny that even one as notable as King David was in need of having His sins atoned for through the Blood of Christ.
I agree.

Quote:
STRanger: In other words, by New Testament and New Covenant standards, I view David as a natural man until death. That does not discount the fact that David enjoyed the Old Testament Ministry of the Holy Spirit (which I view as distinctly different from the New Covenant Ministry). We know the Comforter's Ministry could not start until Christ returned to Heaven, therefore we should not ascribe it to the Old Testament periods.
Sounds reasonable at the moment.

Quote:
STRanger: As to my view of the New Birth, I see it as the culmination of the promises of God throughout Scripture. While we see partial fulfillment of the Spirit of God's everlasting presence in the Old Testament, we do not see a standard of everlasting indwelling. While we see remission of sins, we do not see completion (because the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins).
Also consider that Jesus walking around before crucifixion and resurrection had not place to lay his head. This was to be changed.


Quote:
STRanger: The clearest Old Testament passage concerning the Promise of the New Birth is found here:

Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Obviously given to Israel, we cannot forget God's promise to bless all families of the earth in the Abrahamic Covenant. Again, God's promises culminate in the New Covenant, entrance to being through the New Birth which coincides with the indwelling Spirit of God (as seen above), Who is our guarantee of salvation.
Very good verses.

Quote:
STRanger: In John 1 we see we are born of God, and physical birth is excluded. In Titus we see this is the work of God:

Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Just as in Ezekial we see the transformation through cleansing and the indwelling presence of God.

I view all men to be born dead spiritually, that death having taken place in Adam. To be born again is the renewing of the relationship between God and man that was lost in the Fall.
Yes, with Jesus came for fallen and dead men the possibility of Life.
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Old 10-16-2014, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winsome View Post
As Amadeus asked (& wasn’t answered) “The question to be asked and/or answered is what does it mean to be "born again (or born from above)?”
I would be interested in hearing your answer to the question, winsome, if you have one and are comfortable in sharing it. My own answer may not presently be a clear one, so I am waiting on others.
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