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  #1  
Old 07-13-2014, 08:07 PM
StanJ
 
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Default Soteriology

I see one thread was started 2 years back about OSAS, and quite frankly I am loathe to read it all. Therefore I will start a new thread. No offence to those who participated on the other.

Once Saved Always Saved is a tenant of RT, and yet Luke teaches us in Heb 6:4-6 NIV and 10:38-39 NIV that we can fall away. This is further enforced by Paul in 2 Thess 2:3 NIV.

Now, IF eternal security was as RT says it is then 'apostasy' would not be a reality. Please notice I say apostasy, so please don't tell me the Bible does not say we can't lose our salvation. Walking away from your salvation is NOT losing it, it is denying it and is a reality in scripture. Many have done it in the past and will do so in the future, and we are warned about it as believers. No one may be able to separate us from the love of God and our Good Shepherd, but we can walk away in apostasy. Not heading the warnings thereof, can result in an apathy that cannot be overcome and will result in loss of Eternal Life.

Last edited by StanJ : 07-13-2014 at 11:19 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2014, 01:12 AM
Lookinforacity's Avatar
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Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
I see one thread was started 2 years back about OSAS, and quite frankly I am loathe to read it all. Therefore I will start a new thread. No offence to those who participated on the other.

Once Saved Always Saved is a tenant of RT, and yet Luke teaches us in Heb 6:4-6 NIV and 10:38-39 NIV that we can fall away. This is further enforced by Paul in 2 Thess 2:3 NIV.

Now, IF eternal security was as RT says it is then 'apostasy' would not be a reality. Please notice I say apostasy, so please don't tell me the Bible does not say we can't lose our salvation. Walking away from your salvation is NOT losing it, it is denying it and is a reality in scripture. Many have done it in the past and will do so in the future, and we are warned about it as believers. No one may be able to separate us from the love of God and our Good Shepherd, but we can walk away in apostasy. Not heading the warnings thereof, can result in an apathy that cannot be overcome and will result in loss of Eternal Life.
.

WOW, you started off with a bang didn't you, you were being honest when you said nothing flowery, or pious.

Loathe surely isn't a flowery word.

So, you have some pretty strong feelings about OSAS?
1) I'm kinda slow in the abbreviation department, what does RT stand for?
2) I think Luke is only attributed with "The Gospel of Luke" Paul is attributed with Hebrews, although it is disputed by some.
3) I need some reference for Apostasy.

The reference from.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This verse is not disputed as being true, but.

This is speaking of the specific time of the beast, isn't it, it isn't speaking of Christians walking away from their Salvation the way you are saying it does.

Lastly, how are you using this word in relation to OSAS?

SOTERIOLOGY
noun
Theology .
the doctrine of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Origin:
176070; < Greek sōtēr ( a ) salvation, deliverance ( sōtēr- (stemof sōtḗr ) deliverer + -ia -y3 ) + -o- + -logy



JIM

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  #3  
Old 07-14-2014, 03:18 PM
StanJ
 
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Default Re: Soteriology

LOL...I did warn everybody.

1) Reformed Theology / Calvinism
2) Paul was for years but today Luke is the front runner, besides Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles so it would not make any sense for him to write to the Hebrews.
3) I put them in my OP.

The GREAT falling away just shows the difference between those who fall away daily and the end times when many will fall away at once. The ability to do so has existed since people first confessed Jesus as their savior.

OSAS is about a view of Salvation, which is under the umbrella of Soteriology. Soteriology is divided into two doctrines...Monergism and Synergism. OSAS falls under Monergism.
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Soteriology

Stan,

Could you give us your understanding of OSAS.

Also what are Monergism & Synergism? They are not in my dictionary.

Thanks
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2014, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
LOL...I did warn everybody.

1) Reformed Theology / Calvinism
2) Paul was for years but today Luke is the front runner, besides Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles so it would not make any sense for him to write to the Hebrews.
3) I put them in my OP.

The GREAT falling away just shows the difference between those who fall away daily and the end times when many will fall away at once. The ability to do so has existed since people first confessed Jesus as their savior.

OSAS is about a view of Salvation, which is under the umbrella of Soteriology. Soteriology is divided into two doctrines...Monergism and Synergism. OSAS falls under Monergism.

.


The two references from Hebrews are the same old argument, the wording in those verses are not conclusive for either side of the debate to use, they can be interpreted to defend either position.
The 2 Thess. verse is moot to the conversation, speaking of the end time falling away, which is not the same.
Are there any other verses, which speak of Apostasy which can be used?
There is the walking away from the faith as you have said, but you also say Apostasy happens because of sin.
Is sinning truly Apostasy?
Because everyone believes Christians sin, and ask for forgiveness over and over again, like in the Sacraments of Confession & Communion.

But according to what you are saying from Heb,6:4-6 and 10:38,39 the person sinning becomes Apostate, and looses any chance of Repentance again from sin.
Therefore any Sacrament of Confession & Communion would in effect be nullified wouldn't they?

If someone is deceived by a false teacher, or like in Biblical times, by the Judaisers, they may leave the faith, but what I hear you saying is, anyone at any time has the "free will" to walk away from the faith, and that is your argument for Apostasy, the (Free Will) aspect of the Apostasy
Is that a correct assessment of your position?

You have said, many have walked away in the past, are there any Biblical accounts of this happening which would give us the example of their error?

There is One specific example of something close.

1Co 5:1-8
1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul says to Excommunicate a person who is sinning, otherwise he will infect the body with his sin, we also see, this person was intentionally sinning, he would have to be doing it intentionally because it was his Father's wife.
What we also see is, Paul says in verse five, even though he would be excommunicated, that in the day of the Lord Jesus, the spirit may be saved.

JIM

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  #6  
Old 07-14-2014, 06:35 PM
StanJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by winsome View Post
Stan,

Could you give us your understanding of OSAS.

Also what are Monergism & Synergism? They are not in my dictionary.

Thanks
As I wrote in the OP, OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved and is representative of the belief in Eternal Security, or the P in the T.U.L.I.P doctrine of Reformed Theology.

Monergism equates to God Only elects us to salvation
Synergism equates to our free will choice to be saved when God leads us to salvation.

You should be able to find a lot of this on Google.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2014, 07:18 PM
StanJ
 
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Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
The two references from Hebrews are the same old argument, the wording in those verses are not conclusive for either side of the debate to use, they can be interpreted to defend either position.
The 2 Thess. verse is moot to the conversation, speaking of the end time falling away, which is not the same.
Are there any other verses, which speak of Apostasy which can be used?
There is the walking away from the faith as you have said, but you also say Apostasy happens because of sin.
Is sinning truly Apostasy?
Because everyone believes Christians sin, and ask for forgiveness over and over again, like in the Sacraments of Confession & Communion.
But according to what you are saying from Heb,6:4-6 and 10:38,39 the person sinning becomes Apostate, and looses any chance of Repentance again from sin.
Therefore any Sacrament of Confession & Communion would in effect be nullified wouldn't they?
By saying same OLD argument I'm assuming you support OSAS.
So we'll read it from the NIV.
Heb 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
This clearly show believers/Christians who fall away, and like says they can't be brought back once they turn their backs on God.
Heb 10:38-39
“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
Falling away/Shrinking back means one has attained. No warning would be necessary if those had not been saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
If someone is deceived by a false teacher, or like in Biblical times, by the Judaisers, they may leave the faith, but what I hear you saying is, anyone at any time has the "free will" to walk away from the faith, and that is your argument for Apostasy, the (Free Will) aspect of the Apostasy
Is that a correct assessment of your position?
As this was written TO the Hebrew believers, then obviously it is about Jews who have accepted the Good News of Jesus Christ. It is indisputable that the Word of God shows us we are free will beings, so yes ALL we do is based on our choice to obey or not obey God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
You have said, many have walked away in the past, are there any Biblical accounts of this happening which would give us the example of their error?
The fact that Luke is addressing it shows it was a problem with the Hebrew church. There is also Luke 8:11-15, where Jesus describes the parable He has just told in v5-8. V13-14 shows those who did get saved but fell away.
Paul also spoke of it in 2 Tim 2:12 and Jesus did in Rev 3:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
There is One specific example of something close.
1Co 5:1-8
1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Paul says to Excommunicate a person who is sinning, otherwise he will infect the body with his sin, we also see, this person was intentionally sinning, he would have to be doing it intentionally because it was his Father's wife.
What we also see is, Paul says in verse five, even though he would be excommunicated, that in the day of the Lord Jesus, the spirit may be saved.
This scripture is about people who claim to be Christian but exhibit non Christ like lifestyles. Paul teaches that the local church has the right and obligation to expel them from the church. If they are Christian they will learn from the discipline, and their salvation will be intact. Their foundation remains because they want it to, not because it is secured against their free will.
Paul teaches this in 2 Tim 2:19;
Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Last edited by StanJ : 07-14-2014 at 07:23 PM.
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  #8  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:13 AM
winsome's Avatar
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Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
As I wrote in the OP, OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved and is representative of the belief in Eternal Security, or the P in the T.U.L.I.P doctrine of Reformed Theology.

Monergism equates to God Only elects us to salvation
Synergism equates to our free will choice to be saved when God leads us to salvation.

You should be able to find a lot of this on Google.
I thought TULIP was Calvanist theology rathetr than Reformed theology in general.

Also I don't see why OSAS is necessarily Monergism on your definition. I can see it is in Calvanism but not by your definition of Monergism.
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2014, 02:52 PM
StanJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by winsome View Post
I thought TULIP was Calvanist theology rathetr than Reformed theology in general.

Also I don't see why OSAS is necessarily Monergism on your definition. I can see it is in Calvanism but not by your definition of Monergism.
Sorry I'm just not used to having to explain these positions. Most know them.
Yes, TULIP is Calvinism, but it is more commonly referred to today as RT. The reason being that there are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 point Calvinists, so they are all under RT.

Monergism is one aspect of TULIP. It is the U (Unconditional election) letter.

Hope this helps?
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2014, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Soteriology

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
Heb 10:38-39
But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
Falling away/Shrinking back means one has attained. No warning would be necessary if those had not been saved.
.


What Paul said in verse 38 is perfectly true.
He takes no pleasure in those who Draw Back.

But the point of what Paul was saying is summed up in verse 39

There is a complete thought which is being conveyed, and that thought is, "WE WHO BELIEVE", "DO NOT DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION"

Heb 10:39
(BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION); (BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL). (BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL).

What is said in verse 39 by Paul, completely contradicts what you are saying he said in verse 38.
Both cannot be true.
Therefore I tend to believe what Paul actually did write in verse 39, as opposed to what you think he meant by what he wrote in verse 38.

JIM

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