[Amadeus]

Some of the events mentioned in another forum about a pastor who was removing members for apparently insufficient cause reminded of something in my own history which I will share here:

Over 30 years ago, my wife and I were new to an assembly of a particular denomination. Before entering that place I had never in my life read a Bible even though I was 32 years old and, of course, all of the congregation and the pastor knew that.

I never questioned my pastor's authority because I did not know at the time what authority he had. I was interested in learning more about it and asked him privately to explain what the basis for his authority was. I had only been in his congregation for a few weeks at the time. I expected and hoped to receive an answer from scripture. Instead, he, apparently not understanding what it was I wanted, didn't answer me at all and left the room. It was just about time for service to start so I went and rejoined my wife sitting in a pew in the sanctuary.

Shortly after the start of the service the pastor went to the podium and speaking before the entire congregation rebuked me saying that I had questioned his authority. I was completely stunned as was my wife for I had already explained to her what had occurred just few minutes earlier.

Still, I would have thought that the man had simply not understood me. That was not the case as I discovered. He didn't answer questions about doctrine. He simply expected everyone to listen to him and to obey him and accept anything that he taught without question. I have never been a person easily angered and I did not get angry then, but I cannot say the same for my wife.

In the 21st chapter of John, Jesus told Peter once to feed His lambs and then He told him twice to feed His sheep. It was a simple command. I guess that at the time I was rebuked I was a lamb and I was very hungry, but my pastor did not feed me. He never did answer my question nor did he ever bring up the subject again. I did not leave the church immediately because I did not know enough to understand what had happened. I am not certain that I do even today.

I hold no hard feelings against the man. Rather, I prayed for him for many years after he had finally driven my wife and me from his assembly. He is probably dead now since he was quite a few years older than me. [I am now 65 years old.] I hope that sometime before the end he learned [or will learn if he still lives] from God a better way to deal with people.

[Soulheart3]

Sorry to hear about the pastor removing people. Perhaps in the long run, this pastor did these people a favor, by sending them on thier way, they might find another sheppard more approved by the Lord to feed his sheep.
I am sorry to hear about what happened to you and your wife John, but time and Jesus heals all wounds. I have had many bad experiences with congregations, but not so openly being condemned in a church service. I would have probably felt more angry than you did. Your posts seem to show a gentle spirit, thats no doubt part of the reason you didnt get angry.
I usually have a gentle spirit, but some things can set me off. I am very sensitive in many areas of my emotional and spiritual life. Just hearing angry words or seeing them posted usually hurts me some, even if not directed at me, but I accept who I am, and how the Lord made me, and even thankful that the Lord often uses me through this and because of this sensitivity. I will pray that the Lord would help these people rejected by this poor sheppard to find another sheppard that as you say ... will feed them.

-Brad

[Amadeus]

Thank you for your kind words Brad! Ephesians 4:11-16 makes it clear that ministers are of God, but someone who is supposed to be of God is supposed to work toward accomplishing God's work and will in those given to him.

Being a pastor has to be a difficult position, but someone who is unwilling to put everything into it that God would require, would be better to stand back from that position. Should a person refuse to accept what God calls them to do? No, but it would be better to be a Jonah trying to run away from God than to feed poison to people and say it is in the name of God.

Glory to His name!

John,

[MMari]

John,
I believe that often times there are pastors who are perhaps ordained of men but not ordained of God and this may be the difference in the fruit of thier ministry to the sheep. That would have been a difficult thing to experience having just begun in a new church; I've not heard of something like that being done before. I have seen various forms of control exerted which I believe is a reflection of ones personality. I am assuming your wife didn't take it too well.
You are a better man then many John, there are many who have not been able to forgive as there has been so much hurt which has occurred within the walls of many churches due to insensitive ways of dealing with situations. Many un-churched people fall into this group. If all would follow your example of forgiveness and praying for the person there would be fewer hard hearts.

God Bless you John.

[NotFinishedYet]

John: we testify to your love of the Word and that you greet both the brethren and the stranger in the name of Christ, walking in humility, feeding us all. You know that it matters not who is "first" among us, that the unity of us all is what is important. Those of us who puff our egos, place ourselves above another, or in our own judgment put another out of the assembly; we fall short of obtaining the glory God calls us to. May we have the wisdom of John the Elder to stand against this type of wrong when it occurs. Be blessed, brother. Peggy


3 John(Young's Literal Translation)
The Elder to Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth! beloved, concerning all things I desire thee to prosper, and to be in health, even as thy soul doth prosper, for I rejoiced exceedingly, brethren coming and testifying of the truth in thee, even as thou in truth dost walk; greater than these things I have no joy, that I may hear of my children in truth walking.

Beloved, faithfully dost thou do whatever thou mayest work to the brethren and to the strangers, who did testify of thy love before an assembly, whom thou wilt do well, having sent forward worthily of God, because for [His] name they went forth, nothing receiving from the nations; we, then, ought to receive such, that fellow-workers we may become to the truth.

I did write to the assembly, but he who is loving the first place among them -- Diotrephes -- doth not receive us; because of this, if I may come, I will cause him to remember his works that he doth, with evil words prating against us; and not content with these, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and those intending he doth forbid, and out of the assembly he doth cast.

Beloved, be not thou following that which is evil, but that which is good; he who is doing good, of God he is, and he who is doing evil hath not seen God; to Demetrius testimony hath been given by all, and by the truth itself, and we also -- we do testify, and ye have known that our testimony is true.

Many things I had to write, but I do not wish through ink and pen to write to thee, and I hope straightway to see thee, and mouth to mouth we shall speak. Peace to thee! salute thee do the friends; be saluting the friends by name.

[christkid777]

I have encountered the same kind of things in my own walk. When you are young in Christ you don't know how to take these things. You don't yet have your bearings in Christ and are not confident enough to stand your ground. You want to believe the older men and women in leadership are mature but often they are not. There are some very dangerous men and women in leadership, especially in many smaller churches. If you were a wolf where would you want to hide, in the pulpit or in the pew? When you think about it an independent church is much like a business. Except there are no real guidelines for a church. I have even listened to pastors talk about selling or trading congregations to one another. They add up the value of the offerings and tithes to value the congregation.

[Amadeus]

Hello Marilyn,

Originally Posted by MMari

John,
I believe that often times there are pastors who are perhaps ordained of men but not ordained of God and this may be the difference in the fruit of thier ministry to the sheep. That would have been a difficult thing to experience having just begun in a new church; I've not heard of something like that being done before. I have seen various forms of control exerted which I believe is a reflection of ones personality. I am assuming your wife didn't take it too well.

My wife had a temper and was blunt. I was soft and easy going in spirit, and she was ready to do the man in. After I had calmed her down, we managed to stay there under that pastor a few years. We went through a lot of additional difficulties there, but looking back now, I know that it was God's will for us. We learned much, but what we learned was not all scripture, if you understand my meaning.

You are a better man then many John, there are many who have not been able to forgive as there has been so much hurt which has occurred within the walls of many churches due to insensitive ways of dealing with situations. Many un-churched people fall into this group. If all would follow your example of forgiveness and praying for the person there would be fewer hard hearts.

And may God richly bless you as well Marilyn for your kind words here. God gave me a tough wife who has mellowed through the years while I have grown tougher. His Spirit brought us together before either of us really knew very much about Him. Then when the first couple of years of our marriage got rough, as most marriages do, He really saved our relationship as well. We'll celebrate 37 years of marriage on June 25.

Glory to His name!

[Amadeus]

Hello Peggy,

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

John: we testify to your love of the Word and that you greet both the brethren and the stranger in the name of Christ, walking in humility, feeding us all. You know that it matters not who is "first" among us, that the unity of us all is what is important. Those of us who puff our egos, place ourselves above another, or in our own judgment put another out of the assembly; we fall short of obtaining the glory God calls us to. May we have the wisdom of John the Elder to stand against this type of wrong when it occurs. Be blessed, brother. Peggy

Anyone who knows the Lord in any measure has 'good' in them Peggy. The problem is, at least, in my belief, that we still some evil in us as well. One of the primary jobs of the 'new man' [the good] is to kill the 'old man' [the worker of evil] completely. When the job is finished, then we will be in Spirit like Jesus. he is not finished with us yet! Glory to His name.

3 John(Young's Literal Translation)
The Elder to Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth! beloved, concerning all things I desire thee to prosper, and to be in health, even as thy soul doth prosper, for I rejoiced exceedingly, brethren coming and testifying of the truth in thee, even as thou in truth dost walk; greater than these things I have no joy, that I may hear of my children in truth walking.

Beloved, faithfully dost thou do whatever thou mayest work to the brethren and to the strangers, who did testify of thy love before an assembly, whom thou wilt do well, having sent forward worthily of God, because for [His] name they went forth, nothing receiving from the nations; we, then, ought to receive such, that fellow-workers we may become to the truth.

I did write to the assembly, but he who is loving the first place among them -- Diotrephes -- doth not receive us; because of this, if I may come, I will cause him to remember his works that he doth, with evil words prating against us; and not content with these, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and those intending he doth forbid, and out of the assembly he doth cast.

Beloved, be not thou following that which is evil, but that which is good; he who is doing good, of God he is, and he who is doing evil hath not seen God; to Demetrius testimony hath been given by all, and by the truth itself, and we also -- we do testify, and ye have known that our testimony is true.

Many things I had to write, but I do not wish through ink and pen to write to thee, and I hope straightway to see thee, and mouth to mouth we shall speak. Peace to thee! salute thee do the friends; be saluting the friends by name.

I salute you friend, by name, Peggy!

John,

[Amadeus]

Hello James,

Originally Posted by christkid777

I have encountered the same kind of things in my own walk. When you are young in Christ you don't know how to take these things. You don't yet have your bearings in Christ and are not confident enough to stand your ground. You want to believe the older men and women in leadership are mature but often they are not. There are some very dangerous men and women in leadership, especially in many smaller churches. If you were a wolf where would you want to hide, in the pulpit or in the pew? When you think about it an independent church is much like a business. Except there are no real guidelines for a church. I have even listened to pastors talk about selling or trading congregations to one another. They add up the value of the offerings and tithes to value the congregation.

While I could tell many stories about that pastor and that assembly that would make people say, "how could you have stayed there?', I also have many good memories of the same assembly. That place is where I first was taught to read the Bible and I did. I learned to love the things that God put in that Book for us. That assembly is where I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gift of an unknown tongue in which I pray daily in spite of Watchman's problems with that. I continue to give God all of the praise and the glory!

God does teach us by what He puts before us and by the things that we go through.

John,

[erinblanco]

Sir I really like your reply for it speaks of the sheep thats placed there by the word of God thats placed in your heart when you recieve Christ into your life by the baptism of the Holy Ghost and now He is the sheppard that feeds and guides you for Christs name sake!