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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Spirituality  > Feast of the Baptizer

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  #21  
Old 01-07-2019, 08:50 AM
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Arrow Re: Feast of the Baptizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
.......But the separate Holy Spirit baptism, is in other words for them, an un-approachable characteristic that disseminates NO attributes to His followers........
Those attributes would be:

1) The washing away of original sin (an inaccurate description) and the forgives of sins committed up to that point.
2) Being born again as an adopted son of the Father

The New Testament tells us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, and cleansed (Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). It speaks of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.

What other attributes could you possibly want? What attributes do you think we have overlooked?
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2019, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Those attributes would be:

1) The washing away of original sin (an inaccurate description) and the forgives of sins committed up to that point.
2) Being born again as an adopted son of the Father

The New Testament tells us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, and cleansed (Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). It speaks of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.

What other attributes could you possibly want? What attributes do you think we have overlooked?
Oh, but I do understand the damage inflicted if what I see is in retreat. I hope you know it is not my choice and may God grant your insights, , for damages received are only retained for individuals consumed with the effort of mis-handling Acts 19:2.

If not in retreat and you have evidence that this issue of the separate Holy Spirit baptisms has been relieved or dismissed, it would be nice to know what you base this on, to prevent the notion that the Catechism is being unraveled over the lack of recognizing its presence.

I leave it in your hands and likely won’t bother tidying again as you are no dufus.
"Scripture shows that Spirit baptism is a separate event from salvation and that it occurs afterward. When Paul addressed Apollo’s Ephesian converts in Acts 19:2, he asked, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” Paul was not asking, “Did you get regenerated when you were regenerated?”- Tim Enloe
Source

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  #23  
Old 01-07-2019, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

I try my best to understand what you post but sometimes the odd language you use just eludes me.I don't really know what you are talking about here.

Can someone receive the Holy Spirit without Baptism? Sure. I'm sure it happens all the time.

There is a saying: We are bound by the sacraments but God is not. Jesus tells us to be baptized and so we must. But can God the Holy Spirit come into someone's life before they are baptized because simple belief? Sure, God can do whatever he wants to do. But that is not license for us to assume it.
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- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I try my best to understand what you post but sometimes the odd language you use just eludes me.I don't really know what you are talking about here.

Can someone receive the Holy Spirit without Baptism? Sure. I'm sure it happens all the time.

There is a saying: We are bound by the sacraments but God is not. Jesus tells us to be baptized and so we must.
Hey-hey, there’s another! Another comment of yours I find relief in. Glad to hear of the acknowledging of the duplicity the Apostle states which frees us from that first paragraph I used. I see you are fairly versed with the contemporary freedoms and handling surrounding the Catechism and sacraments.
Quote:
But can God the Holy Spirit come into someone's life before they are baptized because simple belief?
"Before"? From what could possible drive you to think God would bless with spiritual gifts before receiving His Son? If, that is what you meant.
Quote:
God can do whatever he wants to do. But that is not license for us to assume it.
Waaait-a-minute, , now if we happened to be there at the time when Paul asked the question in V-2 concerning the promise, don’t you think Paul would take exception to that if we told him we don’t have license to assume we can have it? I do, and knowing what happened to the converts shortly after Paul did assume it and prayed for them to assume it, those converts would take exception too. An application for us today.
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

You are making this way too complicated. All I am saying is that the Catechism is correct about Baptism. But I am also saying that God can do as he pleases. If a person discovers Jesus and believes, before he knows anything about sacraments or theology or anything else, surely God can fill him with the Holy Spirit. But that is not a license for people to not do what they are supposed to do.

To illustrate, using a different subject: We are required to accept Christ as savior in order to be saved, but God will save whoever he pleases. I tell you this with all surety: You will see all sorts of people in Heaven from all creeds, and you will also see proclaimed Christians in Hell. Oh yah, you can take that to the bank.

But is that a green light for us to join any old religion, knowing that he can save me anyway? NO!! I cannot use the fact that God will save whoever he pleases as a crutch to go off and believe whatever I want to.

I am bound by God's commands, but He is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Waaait-a-minute, , now if we happened to be there at the time when Paul asked the question in V-2 concerning the promise, don’t you think Paul would take exception to that if we told him we don’t have license to assume we can have it?
Nope. Paul never even assumed regarding himself. Quote:
But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/assurance-of-salvation
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 01-08-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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  #26  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
......To illustrate, using a different subject: We are required to accept Christ as savior in order to be saved, but God will save whoever he pleases. I tell you this with all surety: You will see all sorts of people in Heaven from all creeds........
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation (Lumen Gentium)
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #27  
Old 01-09-2019, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

Who-me, complicated? Let’s start by boiling things down with what God cannot do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I am bound by God's commands, but He is not.
To be sure that is the natural inclination, for he is God. Unfortunately, this is in danger of being a false witness CC, for there is a surer word of exhortation to make a straight path concerning those things He puts in place that are done without variation, ever,
God, who never lies, ,”

“, , which it is impossible for God to lie”

“For I the Lord do not change, ,”


(Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18, Malachi 3:6)
Now, if we have regained our composure from that presumption of vacillation, we no longer have reason to think in terms of ourselves not being justified to approach any and all of the promises.
“, , all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.”


(Romans 3:24, 2 Corinthians 1:20)

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  #28  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:39 AM
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Arrow Re: Feast of the Baptizer

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
To be sure that is the natural inclination, for he is God. Unfortunately, this is in danger of being a false witness CC......
I have been polite with you, but if you want to start throwing that false witness crap around, I can 100% say most of the BS you post here is heresy. You wrap your false Christianity up in lofty language, but in the end its just neo-heresy that is no nowehere seen in the early Church.

You tried to tell me that you proved the Papacy wrong when you did nothing of the sort. You exhibit the pride of Satan by thinking that a couple of forum posts somehow overturns 2,000 years of the writings of the saints, bishops, and doctor's of the Church, and the early Church fathers. The nerve is astounding.

You can't understand the simple fact that I am bound by God's commands, but He is not? Jesus commands us to be baptized, yet he can save an unbaptized person if he wishes to, like the thief on the cross. You call that false witness? Think again.

I am out of this thread.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 01-09-2019 at 10:42 AM.
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  #29  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

Hey where’re you going and what are you referring to? You know I have sewn together well I thought, the appropriate context of God’s word? Thinking surely, , any time now he will at some point use the Catechism, or a Council, or a Theologian or indeed the word of God itself to correct me in a “more excellent way”. I guess in that context you are right, I was in error and it is true, I may wither in this place.
The grass withers, the flower fades: but the word of our God shall stand forever.

(Isaiah 40:8)

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  #30  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Feast of the Baptizer

From that fine mission statement,
“Our objective is to promote true unity among the world wide community of faith.
It is not our objective to create "artificial unity" or unity for its own sake.
This website rests on the premise that if we are true2ourselves,
the bonding experience of our ministers will surely become our own!
We will then continue our march together towards God's glory
where all believers will eventually be one!”
So long ago, my mistake here was all too easy to make – inject the ultimate unity with T2O’s statement that couldn’t quite proclaim,
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

(Ephesians 4:3)
There was a reason for that, but I am so slow. What I could not perceive so many years ago was the allurement of the statement without either the effort nor the word detailing why. This would explain CC’s remark on my decade-long effort of his so-called “obsession with unity”.

What is interesting about that is the fact that there is no such thing as an obsession with unity! The only thing that would attempt to turn it into an obsession is first rejection from the one speaking it which is line with the statement to confirm a twist; years ago, if someone were to point to the careful Catholic wording to abridge true unity would have been thought a boisterous comment upon what the ‘mission’ was trying to achieve – the unity of proselytizers, not “all believers”.

Interesting also, my abiding by CC’s wishes not to talk any further of the Infallibility post in the Theology section has remained a source of irritation for him “burned-out” I think he said though he picked it up again with someone else.

But that is understandable seeing my query has forced retreat there as well and handed him and the sect itself a colloquial-founding at best. Which, as far as the self-impose damage of nullification that is now brought to light is concerned, made the claim for the true founding long-since extinct and quite possibly, far worse. For how can you tell when it is in retreat?

Now there was a time when I would have cringed at CC’s last post, but, I have since learned there’s a funny thing about un-founded accusations that remain un-contested and un-corrected; they reach all the way to find the “armor of God” intact and placed exactly where it should be, a defense held firmly in the peace of God, which I am also told the soldier,
“needeth not to be ashamed”
What? Do I still think the chance for being ashamed was only for the child of God before all the ungodly that will come against him? No, but also for all challengers with un-scriptural inflated minds. (Let us continue to rattle them off to the glory of God, "in season, out of season".)

So what’s the takeaway from all this uproar? It’s not just the omission of the text on what unity is being discussed nor of my being rejected without cause of reasoning the scriptures with CC or anyone else. What my stint here in search of the unity of the Spirit from the very first day till now has shown me is as I just stated, a unity of unyielding proselytizers who have once again filled up the man of despising flesh. Despising doctrine and anything that peers with the look of a critical eye.

This is why letting “the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom” is not championed here, that has nothing to do with the objective that is now close to being made a laughingstock. The longer that observation of mine remains un-corrected, the further into being an established fact it will become. The only "obsession" being shown here is one that is in dire need of just that!

Papal Infallibility Link
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Last edited by pryz : 01-15-2019 at 04:41 AM.
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