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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Spirituality  > Towards Having Your Gift

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  #1  
Old 11-19-2016, 04:06 AM
pryz's Avatar
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Default Towards Having Your Gift

I'm a bit revised on this one, and I think for good reason.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:22)
Pentecostalism loves to bath in this one. But I think the usual interpretation of this was a mistake.

As good as this sounds to those anticipating healings, miracles and assorted enablements, the common instruction has driven the reader off course. Are we too quick to forget the Master’s declaration that forges our correct stance?
“Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.” (John 13:16)
Have you possibly put the two together yet? I ask you to consider this look at the same version’s close in Luke,
"A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.” (Luke 6:40)
There it is again, is it not? It isn’t the euphoric stumbling of greater miracles we are to expect at all, but Jesus squarely defined what He meant on the back-half of the comment, “
“, , because I go unto my Father."
That is the only reason they are greater. Forget there being greater works by your hands child of God, we are not to elevate above the Master. Who do we think we are? It’s because of Jesus, mortal man can do the SAME works. Have we forgotten one of his attributes?
“, , for I am meek and lowly” (Matthew 11:29)
It’s as though the Father in heaven has broadcast the message from one end of creation to the other; from the evil
“, , who are you?" (Acts 19:15)
To the Church pillars,
“, , what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present.” (2 Corinthians 10:11)
Honestly, if everything went as though we were "as" our Master, we would be experiencing the same notoriety,
“Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.” (Luke 4:14)
Spiritual checkpoint noted Lord. We simply cannot have it both ways. While some who oppose contends it is because of Jesus we can do greater works, sounds plausible and giving glory to God, but I submit to you, man’s very nature is on display here.

When the instruction carries us into pride rather than submission to not only who but what is considered greater, we are teaching a barrier to steadfastness and a hold on our investment.

If the instruction is because of Jesus, man is now able, then this does make the otherwise incapable-capable and a great change upon man has occurred being a benefit to those in need and the spiritual condition is intact, glory to God

But if the instruction is because of Jesus, man can do greater, the checkpoint is now a magnifier, and spiritual pride of man’s nature is now amplified.

Besides, John 21:25 closes the book and has sealed it away from such pride,
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”
I realize the havoc this could have on things as the above counter is the usual opinion of Pentecostalism. I only pray they who oppose would reconsider.

Peace and God bless!
.
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Old 11-19-2016, 05:38 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

I don't oppose what you say but point to St Paul and his urging:

16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

18 Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.


To imitate Paul and his way of life in Christ Jesus:

Paul heals a cripple Lystra Acts 14:8-10

Paul casts out a spirit of divination Philippi Acts 16:16-18

Paul and Silas's prison doors opened by an earthquake Philippi Acts 16:25, 26

Paul communicates the Holy Spirit Corinth Acts 19:1-6

Paul heals multitudes Corinth Acts 19:11, 12

Paul restores Eutychus to life Troas Acts 20:9-12

Paul shakes off a viper Malta Acts 28:3-6

Paul heals the father of Publius and others Malta Acts 28:7-9


On a different note but similar urging:

Acts 5:10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

The Apostles Heal Many
12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.


That is the power of the kingdom of God, the power of the way of life in Christ Jesus.

And then there are these with power:

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


To me that is scary with fear and trembling.
Lord have mercy!
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  #3  
Old 11-19-2016, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

I’m sorry, but it appears I am requested to respond thusly at this urging Cinder. At what point in time of the Church of Christ was cessation to occur?

Back at the farm of ‘We ain’t got none’, I am always confident of seeing the swift right-foot of fellowship.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

Since through the power of God and His gifts, and the help of Christ, our teacher (with Him having greater power now at the right hand of God), we through Christ and His greater power, we are able to do greater things than what He did here 2000+ years ago, through HIS greater power, through Him, not by our own strength.
__________________
Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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Old 11-19-2016, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
I’m sorry, but it appears I am requested to respond thusly at this urging Cinder. At what point in time of the Church of Christ was cessation to occur?

Back at the farm of ‘We ain’t got none’, I am always confident of seeing the swift right-foot of fellowship.
.
It is a very difficult thing for man to contemplate. I feel like it is a swift right foot from God. And yet I still sit on my arrse when the harvest is plentiful.

That is my own personal interpretation.
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2016, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

As we see from these verses, the Disciple is AS his master never above him.
Therefore Greater, can never be used in any comparison of the Disciple and the Master.


Mat. 10:24,25
24) (THE DISCIPLE IS NOT ABOVE HIS MASTER), nor the servant above his lord.
25) (IT IS ENOUGH FOR THE DISCIPLE THAT HE BE AS HIS MASTER).

Luke 6:40
(THE DISCIPLE IS NOT ABOVE HIS MASTER);
(BUT EVERY ONE THAT IS PERFECT SHALL BE AS HIS MASTER).


The GREATER works Jesus was speaking about, were not Greater in the sense of being bigger, better but in the sense that the works would be (Greater In Number), because He was going to His Father.
His Ministry only lasted for 3 1/2 years, whereas the disciples would live for many more years to come, the Ministry of the now Apostles would also cover a GREATER area than the Ministry of Jesus ever did, they would cover Israel, Rome, and all around the Mediterranean.

Not only that, the promise of GREATER works also extends to us as Believers, (DISCIPLES) of Christ also, the promise was not only to the Apostles as some would believe, the verse reads.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, (HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME), the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

This "He that believeth on me" extends to all Believers everywhere, for all time, it's to all Disciples forever.

As far as the spiritual pride of man’s nature, this should not even be considered, because the BELIEVER has been changed, we are a New Creation, New Creatures, we have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in us and we are the Children of God, "Mans Nature", has died with the flesh in which it was embodied we now have the Nature of OUR Father, in other words, "God's Nature".


JIM
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

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Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
Since through the power of God and His gifts, and the help of Christ, our teacher (with Him having greater power now at the right hand of God), we through Christ and His greater power, we are able to do greater things than what He did here 2000+ years ago, through HIS greater power, through Him, not by our own strength.
That power is released through us from us loving God with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our mind and with all our strength and in the same way loving our neighbour.
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

The OP draws attention to a tantalizing unsolved puzzle. The problem of apparently unfulfilled expectations is compounded by the fact that Jesus not only looks to the Holy Spirit as the source of "greater works" than He has performed (John 14:12), but takes this to mean that we are better off without His physical presence (16:7). Would anyone here prefer their current life in the Spirit now, such as it is, to drawing inspiration and faith from traveling with Jesus and watching Him perform miracles? And remember, Jesus had already empowered His disciples to perform healing miracles during His public ministry (Matthew 10:1).

Some might be tempted to conclude that the fully human Jesus simply overrated the spiritual potential of His disciples and the coming church. I'm not ready to draw that conclusion, but neither have I found any satisfactory explanation of these verses, but only unconvincing rationalizations. So I must humbly leave this issue as an unsolved mystery.
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Old 05-12-2018, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadHermit View Post
The OP draws attention to a tantalizing unsolved puzzle. The problem of apparently unfulfilled expectations is compounded by the fact that Jesus not only looks to the Holy Spirit as the source of "greater works" than He has performed (John 14:12), but takes this to mean that we are better off without His physical presence (16:7). Would anyone here prefer their current life in the Spirit now, such as it is, to drawing inspiration and faith from traveling with Jesus and watching Him perform miracles? And remember, Jesus had already empowered His disciples to perform healing miracles during His public ministry (Matthew 10:1).

Some might be tempted to conclude that the fully human Jesus simply overrated the spiritual potential of His disciples and the coming church. I'm not ready to draw that conclusion, but neither have I found any satisfactory explanation of these verses, but only unconvincing rationalizations. So I must humbly leave this issue as an unsolved mystery.
Boy, what a vestige of withdrawal here. You can conclude it as unsolved all you want, question is Why?

From my perspective, as the word tells us, the fruit of faith (visible miracles) doesn’t need to be established in the recipient (individually) to appear before an unbelieving world, no. Yet, interestingly enough, if the (establishing of) unbelief is too ungodly, will hardly receive the profound though His lesser blessings remain robust on that very same people.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all men liberally, and upbraides not


(Acts 13:41, Matthew 13:58, Matthew 5:45, James 1:5)
But I honestly didn’t have to go far to find that your mind was already set (emphasis mine).
And without faith it is impossible to please God,

(Hebrews 11:6)
Yet, yours has an establishing too, wouldn’t you rather join the company of earnest "expectation"?

.
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: Towards Having Your Gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
I'm a bit revised on this one, and I think for good reason.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:22)
Pentecostalism loves to bath in this one. But I think the usual interpretation of this was a mistake.

As good as this sounds to those anticipating healings, miracles and assorted enablements, the common instruction has driven the reader off course. Are we too quick to forget the Master’s declaration that forges our correct stance?
“Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.” (John 13:16)
Have you possibly put the two together yet? I ask you to consider this look at the same version’s close in Luke,
"A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40)
There it is again, is it not? It isn’t the euphoric stumbling of greater miracles we are to expect at all, but Jesus squarely defined what He meant on the back-half of the comment, “
“, , because I go unto my Father."

I realize the havoc this could have on things as the above counter is the usual opinion of Pentecostalism. I only pray they who oppose would reconsider.

Peace and God bless!
.
Hello again from Pentecostal Assembly of God land... a bit of a challenge for you my friend.
your original post draws a strong conclusion that Pentecostals are taught they are to do or able, greater works meaning miracles and healing s than Jesus himself "because I go unto my father"

Well, I am here to tell you, never in all my days was I ever taught that, have I ever met anyone taught that, in fact I never met anyone so arrogant to even suggest that. I am curious where that information comes from. I purposely did some research into fundamental truths / statements of faith across the web, couldn't find any that even remote suggest that type of interpretation .. My personal interpretation is close to Jims/Lookinforacity with the previously mentioned verse being the resurrection and completion.


Dan
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