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  #1  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:35 PM
blujon1
 
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Default When does this take place

(Rev 11:7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
When does the church finish its testimony?
And when does Satan take over the church?

Last edited by blujon1 : 02-11-2009 at 07:36 PM. Reason: ???
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2009, 08:06 PM
DavidJB's Avatar
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Default Re: When does this take place

Quote:
Originally Posted by blujon1 View Post
(Rev 11:7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
When does the church finish its testimony?
And when does Satan take over the church?
This verse concerns the Two Witnesses, not the Church. The Church is not even present in the Tribulation as Daniel makes clear that the Tribulation concerns Israel. Satan, or the Beast, will overcome and kill the Two Witnesses after they have prophesied for 1,260 days.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:52 PM
PK777
 
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Default Re: When does this take place

Quote:
Originally Posted by blujon1 View Post
(Rev 11:7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
When does the church finish its testimony?
And when does Satan take over the church?
There is not a short answer for this, it is an indepth study, and requires very careful scriptural comparison. It is prophecy and should be studied with the correct prophetic times, and symbols being understood. The book of Revelation containes 276 verses found in the old testiment...but here is the short answer from scripture: Daniel must be studied with Revelation.
The two witness you asked about are the Old and New Testament,
Here is the scriptural reference:
Revelation compared to Zachariah ...
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


Zachariah:
Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

So you can see from scripture the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testiments.. Symbolizes by Olive trees, which produce olive oil, and lamps, (my word is a lamp unto you feet )

Also in Mark 9 when Jesus stood upon the Mount of Configuration and spoke with Moses(Law) and Elijaha (prophets), are Moses or Elijhia dead? it says in Revelation that they would be killed, but the bible states they are in heaven with Jesus right now, so the two witnesses can't be them.


The 1260 day in prophecy represent 1260 years.

Here you can see the prophetic day for a year represented in scripture:
Time = 360 Day Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32; 7:25; Daniel 11:13 margin
Times = 720 Days Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:6,14, 13:5
Day = Literal year Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34

Remember context is curcial to understanding.

The place to get this answer is in the bible and world history books, because it has already happened. The nation of France, banned the bible during the "Reign of Terror" they burrned the bible in the streets and turned their backs on God, worshiping instead the 'goddess of reason' this is in all historical fact.
The 1260 days are in fact the 1260 years in which the Roman Catholic Church did in fact "war against the saints". When the church ws a church state world power. It was the major reason for the Protestant Reformation. It all ended in 1798. In that time, the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to sunday, and signed a trety in 1929 with Musselini giving back to the papacy the church state status, however at the time a much smaller one, and is full of made traditions. Some of these are mentioned in both Revelation and Daniel. At the time of the treaty between Musselini and the pope there was an article in the San Francisco paper with these headlines "...and the wound is healed' Almost the exact wording:
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Remember a beast in bible prophecy represents a kingdom, or government...


Catholics have to stop and think just really who Protestants are. Protestants are ex catholics and understood the fact that the catholic church is the antichrist that Daniel prophesized about; Who would think to change the times and laws. (Sabbath to sunday) A holy 24 hour period and the Law of God.

Most Protestants did not want to break away. But put yourself in their shoes during that period--indulgences, inquisition, many false and sinful popes, scripture not being given to the masses to read, and haughty popes claiming they were even above the kings and princes of Europe and God Hinself, they claim 'infallability'. And this has not really changed, only their method has. Satan is distorying from within what he could not from violence, fear, ignoance, and terror as an out ward assult. But think about it, does a leopard change it's spots? Does Satan still want to distory and decieve?

Like Daniel's earlier prophesy pin-pointing to the day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and be proclaimed king (happened on the exact day in 32 AD on Psalm Sunday)---Daniel also prophesized the exact length of time that the antichrist would be in world power. Daniel said that that the saints would be given to his hand for "a time and times and half a time". God referred to this as seven times. And remember A Time represents a year in the Hebrew 360-day year. So 3 1/2 times is 3 1/2 years. This equals 42 months based on the biblical 30-day month--or 1,260 days.

First you have to understand that the antichrist could be both an evil system, a man, and/or both. In Daniel 7:8,21 he describes the antichrist as a little horn who makes war against the saints, and prevailing against them"
Horn = King or kingdom Daniel 7:24; 8:5, 21, 22; Zechariah 1:18, 19; Revelation 17:12
Beast = Kingdom/government/political power Daniel 7:17, 23

What happened and when?

In Thessalonians 2 Paul told us when the 1260 years (called days) would begin. It was when the "restrainer" was removed.

Who was the restrainer of this antichrist? Nearly all early Catholic church fathers and early Protestant theologians agree that the restrainer was not the "Holy Spirit" as many falsely preach. The restrainer that had to be removed before the arrival of that antichrist (Papacy) was the Roman Empire (the Caesars).

Why this prophesy of Daniel is also awesome is that it happened exactly as prophesized. In 476 AD, the Roman Empire fell and the Caesar "restrainer" was removed (see 2 Thessalonians 2:7). The 1260 year period when the antichrist (Roman Papacy) would preside over the dark ages, inquisition, etc began a little later in 538 AD after the Roman Empire had already collapsed and an eastern empire ruler named Emperor Justinian issued his famous decree that made the Pope the legal "Head of all the Holy Churches". This began the prophesized reign of that antichrist (Papacy system).
Add 1260 years to 538 AD and we come out to 1798 AD, when this evil system ended. This was a Therorocy Church and State. This is the very short version.

What happened in 1798 AD? A general of Napoleon's (named Berthier) entered Rome with his French army. The Papacy was abolished, the pontifical ring was removed, and the sitting Pope--Pope Pius VI was sent to France,where he died in exile.

The church of Jesus Christ will go through the tribulation, as God states the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is much more than I was originally going to write, but as I said , prophecy can only be studied with scripture, not someones feelings, views, or opinions. Scriptural fact, compaired with historical fact.
I hope this answered your question...
PK777
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  #4  
Old 02-11-2009, 11:35 PM
blujon1
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: When does this take place

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK777 View Post
There is not a short answer for this, it is an indepth study, and requires very careful scriptural comparison. It is prophecy and should be studied with the correct prophetic times, and symbols being understood. The book of Revelation containes 276 verses found in the old testiment...but here is the short answer from scripture: Daniel must be studied with Revelation.
The two witness you asked about are the Old and New Testament,
Here is the scriptural reference:
Revelation compared to Zachariah ...
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


Zachariah:
Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

So you can see from scripture the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testiments.. Symbolizes by Olive trees, which produce olive oil, and lamps, (my word is a lamp unto you feet )

Also in Mark 9 when Jesus stood upon the Mount of Configuration and spoke with Moses(Law) and Elijaha (prophets), are Moses or Elijhia dead? it says in Revelation that they would be killed, but the bible states they are in heaven with Jesus right now, so the two witnesses can't be them.


The 1260 day in prophecy represent 1260 years.

Here you can see the prophetic day for a year represented in scripture:
Time = 360 Day Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32; 7:25; Daniel 11:13 margin
Times = 720 Days Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:6,14, 13:5
Day = Literal year Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34

Remember context is curcial to understanding.

The place to get this answer is in the bible and world history books, because it has already happened. The nation of France, banned the bible during the "Reign of Terror" they burrned the bible in the streets and turned their backs on God, worshiping instead the 'goddess of reason' this is in all historical fact.
The 1260 days are in fact the 1260 years in which the Roman Catholic Church did in fact "war against the saints". When the church ws a church state world power. It was the major reason for the Protestant Reformation. It all ended in 1798. In that time, the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to sunday, and signed a trety in 1929 with Musselini giving back to the papacy the church state status, however at the time a much smaller one, and is full of made traditions. Some of these are mentioned in both Revelation and Daniel. At the time of the treaty between Musselini and the pope there was an article in the San Francisco paper with these headlines "...and the wound is healed' Almost the exact wording:
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Remember a beast in bible prophecy represents a kingdom, or government...


Catholics have to stop and think just really who Protestants are. Protestants are ex catholics and understood the fact that the catholic church is the antichrist that Daniel prophesized about; Who would think to change the times and laws. (Sabbath to sunday) A holy 24 hour period and the Law of God.

Most Protestants did not want to break away. But put yourself in their shoes during that period--indulgences, inquisition, many false and sinful popes, scripture not being given to the masses to read, and haughty popes claiming they were even above the kings and princes of Europe and God Hinself, they claim 'infallability'. And this has not really changed, only their method has. Satan is distorying from within what he could not from violence, fear, ignoance, and terror as an out ward assult. But think about it, does a leopard change it's spots? Does Satan still want to distory and decieve?

Like Daniel's earlier prophesy pin-pointing to the day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and be proclaimed king (happened on the exact day in 32 AD on Psalm Sunday)---Daniel also prophesized the exact length of time that the antichrist would be in world power. Daniel said that that the saints would be given to his hand for "a time and times and half a time". God referred to this as seven times. And remember A Time represents a year in the Hebrew 360-day year. So 3 1/2 times is 3 1/2 years. This equals 42 months based on the biblical 30-day month--or 1,260 days.

First you have to understand that the antichrist could be both an evil system, a man, and/or both. In Daniel 7:8,21 he describes the antichrist as a little horn who makes war against the saints, and prevailing against them"
Horn = King or kingdom Daniel 7:24; 8:5, 21, 22; Zechariah 1:18, 19; Revelation 17:12
Beast = Kingdom/government/political power Daniel 7:17, 23

What happened and when?

In Thessalonians 2 Paul told us when the 1260 years (called days) would begin. It was when the "restrainer" was removed.

Who was the restrainer of this antichrist? Nearly all early Catholic church fathers and early Protestant theologians agree that the restrainer was not the "Holy Spirit" as many falsely preach. The restrainer that had to be removed before the arrival of that antichrist (Papacy) was the Roman Empire (the Caesars).

Why this prophesy of Daniel is also awesome is that it happened exactly as prophesized. In 476 AD, the Roman Empire fell and the Caesar "restrainer" was removed (see 2 Thessalonians 2:7). The 1260 year period when the antichrist (Roman Papacy) would preside over the dark ages, inquisition, etc began a little later in 538 AD after the Roman Empire had already collapsed and an eastern empire ruler named Emperor Justinian issued his famous decree that made the Pope the legal "Head of all the Holy Churches". This began the prophesized reign of that antichrist (Papacy system).
Add 1260 years to 538 AD and we come out to 1798 AD, when this evil system ended. This was a Therorocy Church and State. This is the very short version.

What happened in 1798 AD? A general of Napoleon's (named Berthier) entered Rome with his French army. The Papacy was abolished, the pontifical ring was removed, and the sitting Pope--Pope Pius VI was sent to France,where he died in exile.

The church of Jesus Christ will go through the tribulation, as God states the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is much more than I was originally going to write, but as I said , prophecy can only be studied with scripture, not someones feelings, views, or opinions. Scriptural fact, compaired with historical fact.
I hope this answered your question...
PK777
That is quite a lot of information to process, thanks for your input, both of you!
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  #5  
Old 02-13-2009, 08:34 PM
warriorsofthecross's Avatar
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Default Re: When does this take place

The TRIBULATION and the WRATH of God are NOT the same thing They are two entirely separate events. The Tribulation is the WRATH of the antichrist, when the abomination of desolation occurs, the WRATH of God doesn't begin until "After the tribulation of those days", when Christ returns, according to Matthew ch 24. The church is promised to be " kept from the wrath to come", not the tribulation.
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  #6  
Old 02-22-2009, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: When does this take place

Quote:
Originally Posted by warriorsofthecross View Post
The TRIBULATION and the WRATH of God are NOT the same thing They are two entirely separate events. The Tribulation is the WRATH of the antichrist, when the abomination of desolation occurs, the WRATH of God doesn't begin until "After the tribulation of those days", when Christ returns, according to Matthew ch 24. The church is promised to be " kept from the wrath to come", not the tribulation.
Yes Yes

Hi I agree with you on this. Amen Brother.
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