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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Nicene Creed Translation Changes

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  #1  
Old 09-05-2012, 09:31 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
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Default Nicene Creed Translation Changes

Your thoughts on this,
from: USCCB - Roman Missal | Changes in the People's Parts

Quote:
This Creed was originally adopted at the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 and updated at the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381. It is therefore also referred to as the “Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.”

The first major change is difficult to miss: the Creed will now say “I believe” instead of “We believe.” Other language groups have been using “I believe” in the vernacular, because it is a straightforward translation of the Latin “Credo.” This offers a recurring opportunity to reaffirm one’s personal faith, just as when individuals respond, “I do,” if there is a renewal of baptismal promises during Mass.

The next change is from “seen and unseen” to “visible and invisible.” The Latin “visibilium” and “invisibilium” convey a more specific demarcation between the bodily and the spiritual realms. For instance, a child playing hide-and-seek may be unseen yet is still considered visible, whereas one’s guardian angel is indeed invisible by nature.

The new Creed translation also recovers Christ’s title, “Only Begotten Son” (“Fili Unigenite”), which we see in the revised Gloria. To say the Son is “born of the Father before all ages” is a profound theological truth, for the Son is not “born” in the human sense of beginning one’s life, but eternally proceeds from the Father while being always fully God. Therefore, we profess that Jesus Christ is “begotten, not made.”

Following this comes a major wording change: from “one in being” to “consubstantial with the Father.” “Consubstantial” (“consubstantialem” in the Latin text) is an unusual word that will require some catechesis, but it is a crucial early theological term, asserting that the Son is of the “same substance” with the Father – meaning He equally shares the Father’s divinity as a Person of the Holy Trinity.

Although it carries the same basic meaning as “one in being,” the more precise use of “consubstantial” is an acknowledgement of how the Greek equivalent of the word was so important for safeguarding orthodoxy in the early Church. In the Fourth Century, the description “homoousios” (“same substance”) was affirmed over “homoiousios” (“like substance”). The reality of who Christ is thus hinged upon a single letter!

There is another important change in the middle of the Creed: “and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.” The current wording of “born of the Virgin Mary, and became man” can easily be misinterpreted to mean that Christ did not actually become man until the time He was born. Of course, the reality is that the Son of God took on human nature from the moment of His conception in the Blessed Virgin Mary’s womb, at the Annunciation. By using the term, “incarnate,” the new translation leaves no ambiguity.

One of the remaining minor changes in the new Creed translation is “I look forward to the resurrection of the dead,” by which one expresses a sincere desire, rather than simply “looking for” the resurrection. The Latin “exspecto” conveys a sense of anxious waiting and expectation!


Old Version (items changed are bolded):


We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen



New Version (items changed are bolded):


I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit
was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #2  
Old 09-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

I don't have a problem with this. The "I believe" from "We believe" I think is used by the EO. Personally, I like the direct accountability.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by paralambano View Post
I don't have a problem with this. The "I believe" from "We believe" I think is used by the EO. Personally, I like the direct accountability.
Me too.....
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- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

I can see merits in both "I" and "we", though I think I prefer the corporate feel of "we" - maybe that's a reaction to all the years I've spent in an individualistic approach to Christianity.

What struck me most, when I followed the link, was just how similar the Roman Missal is to the Anglican Liturgy. Word-for-word the same in a lot of places. I hadn't realised that before.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddybear View Post
I can see merits in both "I" and "we", though I think I prefer the corporate feel of "we" - maybe that's a reaction to all the years I've spent in an individualistic approach to Christianity......
I think (and I stress the word "think") that this translation is more a matter of being more accurate to the Latin version than it is any kind of historical correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddybear View Post
.....What struck me most, when I followed the link, was just how similar the Roman Missal is to the Anglican Liturgy. Word-for-word the same in a lot of places. I hadn't realised that before.
Well, even though the English church broke from Rome regarding authority, they still kept all the outward trappings and prayers and so forth, so I am not surprised.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2012, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

In the CEC we use the new translation
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddybear View Post
I can see merits in both "I" and "we", though I think I prefer the corporate feel of "we" - maybe that's a reaction to all the years I've spent in an individualistic approach to Christianity.

What struck me most, when I followed the link, was just how similar the Roman Missal is to the Anglican Liturgy. Word-for-word the same in a lot of places. I hadn't realised that before.
Is just a matter of reaffirmation of Baptism before the Oblation.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

Most of the changes are good changes.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

I have always wondered. seeing as this creed was translated to English, why wasn't the entire creed fully translated. We see the line which states: one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Now we all should know by now the word catholic was first used by Ignatius of Antioch on or about 105 a.d. The word catholic is Greek is: καθολικός (katholikos), which means universal. So why when we read Ignatius' letter in English is the word καθολικός (katholikos) rendered as universal and yet in the creed it is incorrectly rendered catholic?

Of course the creed was written in Latin and catholic is catholicus. Yet the meaning remains the same across linguistic lines. As Pastor Linsinbigler has the strong cross linguistic abilities among the members, I personally would like to hear, or in this case, read, what he thinks on the subject.

For that matter Apostle, which is the root of Apostolic is in Greek:ἀπόστολος (apóstolos) which literally means, one who is sent away. In context in English it means emissary or messenger. One could take it to the next step by application and go all the way to missionary as a missionary is am emissary or messenger of the church sent out to bring the Good News or Gospel to the world. As no measurement of distance is applied to the term missionary someone the simply bring the Gospel to his neighbor is indeed a missionary. So then should not the line quoted about read: one, holy, universal and missionary Church.?
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Nicene Creed Translation Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BishopPaul2 View Post
.....Apostle, which is the root of Apostolic is in Greek:ἀπόστολος (apóstolos) which literally means, one who is sent away. In context in English it means emissary or messenger. One could take it to the next step by application and go all the way to missionary as a missionary is am emissary or messenger of the church sent out to bring the Good News or Gospel to the world.........
This is a bit off topic, but, no, one cannot take that step.

Missionaries are usually volunteers, people who feel a call to help. Sometimes they may be "sent" by their organization, but that is not the same as being chosen in person by Christ to be sent with authority.

Yes, the root of "Apostle" in Greek means one who is sent away, or more acurately, one who is sent with authority, like an ambassador, a word that Paul himself used. Jesus gave the Apostles "authority" teach and baptise.

This sort of authority is what is alluded to in the Creed. The Church carries the Apostolic authority to teach, preach, and baptise. You can't make the leap to say that includes every missionary who goes and helps the poor. They are good people, but they are neither the Apostles nor the successors of the Apostles.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 09-06-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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