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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Jews convert to Christianity.

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  #11  
Old 01-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Loretohouse's Avatar
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cate View Post
I was referring to Anti-pope Benedict XVI. The Catholic Church teaches that all heretics places themselves ipso facto outside the Church - this is a dogma of the Church.
By calling the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI the "anti pope" you are automatically placing yourself outside the Church and committing heresy.
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2011, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

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Originally Posted by Bloodwashed View Post
Brother Loretohouse. Non Catholic people are all over the map on this one. Many would not take that view to be problematic. Others have problems with any view that is not what they hold to be true. Our Church a non-denomo, charismatic fellowship takes hardly no stand on how this all pands out. I'm sure that we have people from many different views. You might say, that we just have a unity in what we agree on, & consider these things not worth fighting about. In his Love Mark!
Most Catholics do not spend much time dwelling on the end times and I only have heard one homily on the subject. My Priest said that if we knew that Jesus was coming tomorrow we should still do the same thing that we are supposed to do every day anyway. Christians are always to live their life as if today were their last day and try to have our souls in a state of Grace. That is all that matters.
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2011, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwashed View Post
Brother Loretohouse. Non Catholic people are all over the map on this one. Many would not take that view to be problematic. Others have problems with any view that is not what they hold to be true. Our Church a non-denomo, charismatic fellowship takes hardly no stand on how this all pands out. I'm sure that we have people from many different views. You might say, that we just have a unity in what we agree on, & consider these things not worth fighting about. In his Love Mark!
Very true. Romans 14.1: "Do not have disputes over doubtful matters."
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  #14  
Old 01-04-2011, 07:42 PM
alphaomega
 
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretohouse View Post


What I find interesting is that the Catholic Church says
the Jews will be converted before the great "apostacy and antiChrist".
It appears that if we see signs of Israel
converting we are close to the end?
or possibly the period after their conversion may be a longer period of tribulation.
I am also mindful that Jesus said we will not know the time or day.

I do not recall hearing anything about this in non Catholic writings or pastors on TV.

Would this scenario be problematic for many non Catholics?
The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church

2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)

3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.

4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

Would this scenario be problematic for many non Catholics?[/color][/size][/quote]

sorry ; the above statements are from Lorethouse ; but i don't know how to muti quote

somewhat ; for there are things to be looked at here

#1 ; i have no problem with this ;

#2; after the completion of the gentiles coming in ("the rapture")
(#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1) ---?
where this is true ; the event of #1 ; ( the rapture)
does not cause the Jew to turn to Jesus
what does spearhead this turn is the teaching ( witnessing) of the two witness'( Enoch and Elijah)

remember ; these two are killed before the return of Jesus

a biblical story
the prodigal son goes into the feast ( wedding supper)
the older brother ( the Jew ) does not.

thought ;
there is also the story of the 144, 000
now while it is true that the 144,000 are not all Jews
( only the two tribes of the southern kingdom are making the 12k of Judah and the 12k of Benjamin are Jews ( 24 of 144 k ) in this group.
surely the church if it were still on earth would contribute more than 120k

#3; anti Christ and the church ;
the obvious problem i have with this is the fact it has been placed at #3
which includes the coming of the Jews into the kingdom ; but i have after the rapture which would leave the church out of this equation

#4; this point is of no particular concern to me ; but i offer a thought from the book of Enoch concerning if its
1- world passing and judgment
-----------or------------------
2- judgment and then world passing

the thought that others have brought through the ages comes from
the fallen angels asking for a half life ( 500 years)
-- both ; Nostradamus ( with his ending of the world occurring in 3797) and h g wells in his film "time machine" could be shown to have that extra 500 years of the earth existence

anyways ; these are my thoughts

Last edited by alphaomega : 01-04-2011 at 07:44 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-04-2011, 07:57 PM
cate's Avatar
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretohouse View Post
By calling the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI the "anti pope" you are automatically placing yourself outside the Church and committing heresy.
Your comment is perfectly ridiculous when one considers the following.

St. Antoninus, "In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." (Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub.)

"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives…”

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:
“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Lastly, the Catholic Church has done and continues to speak immensely on the subject of the last days. Popes, saints and doctors of the Church have all warned of the Great Apostasy that would take place in the final days. This is because the deception and apostasy from the true faith would be so great that ( if it were possible) even the elect would be deceived.
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Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy woman, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen
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  #16  
Old 01-04-2011, 08:17 PM
Loretohouse's Avatar
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

somewhat ; for there are things to be looked at here

#1 ; i have no problem with this ;

#2; after the completion of the gentiles coming in ("the rapture")
(#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1) ---?
where this is true ; the event of #1 ; ( the rapture)
does not cause the Jew to turn to Jesus
what does spearhead this turn is the teaching ( witnessing) of the two witness'( Enoch and Elijah)

remember ; these two are killed before the return of Jesus

a biblical story
the prodigal son goes into the feast ( wedding supper)
the older brother ( the Jew ) does not.

thought ;
there is also the story of the 144, 000
now while it is true that the 144,000 are not all Jews
( only the two tribes of the southern kingdom are making the 12k of Judah and the 12k of Benjamin are Jews ( 24 of 144 k ) in this group.
surely the church if it were still on earth would contribute more than 120k

#3; anti Christ and the church ;
the obvious problem i have with this is the fact it has been placed at #3
which includes the coming of the Jews into the kingdom ; but i have after the rapture which would leave the church out of this equation

#4; this point is of no particular concern to me ; but i offer a thought from the book of Enoch concerning if its
1- world passing and judgment
-----------or------------------
2- judgment and then world passing

the thought that others have brought through the ages comes from
the fallen angels asking for a half life ( 500 years)
-- both ; Nostradamus ( with his ending of the world occurring in 3797) and h g wells in his film "time machine" could be shown to have that extra 500 years of the earth existence

anyways ; these are my thoughts[/quote]

In Catholic understanding of the end times there is not a rapture in the modern day dispensationalism sense. Jesus only comes once at the "End of time" which is said in many places in scripture. Actually you want to be "left behind" according to Matthew in the parable of the Goats and sheep. You want to be a sheep left behind. There is one judgement at the end of time.
The rapture is a novel idea that none of the Apostles, Church Fathers, or even the Reformers put forth. It is only 150 years old. I must admit that my apologetic knowledge of end times doctrine is limited but that is my understanding and I hope Sola or Winsome will add more.
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  #17  
Old 01-04-2011, 08:25 PM
alphaomega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretohouse View Post
somewhat ; for there are things to be looked at here

#1 ; i have no problem with this ;

#2; after the completion of the gentiles coming in ("the rapture")
(#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1) ---?
where this is true ; the event of #1 ; ( the rapture)
does not cause the Jew to turn to Jesus
what does spearhead this turn is the teaching ( witnessing) of the two witness'( Enoch and Elijah)

remember ; these two are killed before the return of Jesus

a biblical story
the prodigal son goes into the feast ( wedding supper)
the older brother ( the Jew ) does not.

thought ;
there is also the story of the 144, 000
now while it is true that the 144,000 are not all Jews
( only the two tribes of the southern kingdom are making the 12k of Judah and the 12k of Benjamin are Jews ( 24 of 144 k ) in this group.
surely the church if it were still on earth would contribute more than 120k

#3; anti Christ and the church ;
the obvious problem i have with this is the fact it has been placed at #3
which includes the coming of the Jews into the kingdom ; but i have after the rapture which would leave the church out of this equation

#4; this point is of no particular concern to me ; but i offer a thought from the book of Enoch concerning if its
1- world passing and judgment
-----------or------------------
2- judgment and then world passing

the thought that others have brought through the ages comes from
the fallen angels asking for a half life ( 500 years)
-- both ; Nostradamus ( with his ending of the world occurring in 3797) and h g wells in his film "time machine" could be shown to have that extra 500 years of the earth existence

anyways ; these are my thoughts
In Catholic understanding of the end times there is not a rapture in the modern day dispensationalism sense. Jesus only comes once at the "End of time" which is said in many places in scripture. Actually you want to be "left behind" according to Matthew in the parable of the Goats and sheep. You want to be a sheep left behind. There is one judgement at the end of time.
The rapture is a novel idea that none of the Apostles, Church Fathers, or even the Reformers put forth. It is only 150 years old. I must admit that my apologetic knowledge of end times doctrine is limited but that is my understanding and I hope Sola or Winsome will add more.
[/quote]

of coarse my answer was to what i have a problem with .....
but with that said could you address
1- what the older brother not going in meant (prodigal son story)
2- when the witness of revelation occur
a- are they men
b-is this symbolic
c- who are they

thank you
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  #18  
Old 01-04-2011, 08:36 PM
Loretohouse's Avatar
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
In Catholic understanding of the end times there is not a rapture in the modern day dispensationalism sense. Jesus only comes once at the "End of time" which is said in many places in scripture. Actually you want to be "left behind" according to Matthew in the parable of the Goats and sheep. You want to be a sheep left behind. There is one judgement at the end of time.
The rapture is a novel idea that none of the Apostles, Church Fathers, or even the Reformers put forth. It is only 150 years old. I must admit that my apologetic knowledge of end times doctrine is limited but that is my understanding and I hope Sola or Winsome will add more.
of coarse my answer was to what i have a problem with .....
but with that said could you address
1- what the older brother not going in meant (prodigal son story)
2- when the witness of revelation occur
a- are they men
b-is this symbolic
c- who are they

thank you[/quote]

I know there is an answer to your questions but I do not know the answer. I will ask my resources and get back to you.
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  #19  
Old 01-04-2011, 09:03 PM
alphaomega
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loretohouse View Post
of coarse my answer was to what i have a problem with .....
but with that said could you address
1- what the older brother not going in meant (prodigal son story)
2- when the witness of revelation occur
a- are they men
b-is this symbolic
c- who are they

thank you
I know there is an answer to your questions but I do not know the answer. I will ask my resources and get back to you.[/quote]

thank you very much for taking the time
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  #20  
Old 01-04-2011, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Jews convert to Christianity.

Quote, Loretohouse
In Catholic understanding of the end times there is not a rapture in the modern day dispensationalism sense. Jesus only comes once at the "End of time" which is said in many places in scripture. Actually you want to be "left behind" according to Matthew in the parable of the Goats and sheep. You want to be a sheep left behind. There is one judgement at the end of time.
The rapture is a novel idea that none of the Apostles, Church Fathers, or even the Reformers put forth. It is only 150 years old. I must admit that my apologetic knowledge of end times doctrine is limited but that is my understanding and I hope Sola or Winsome will add more.

I'm in agreement here. I am not a rapture thumper. This same Jesus shall come again, in like manner as you see him go. At the end! In Noahs day, who was taken out, & who was left? I'd say Noah rode out the storm, in the ark. The Ark, a type of Christ. The wicked were removed, or taken out. This is not worth a fight to me. His Peace Mark!
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