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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Can a christian sin?

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  #1  
Old 01-21-2009, 01:36 PM
markm's Avatar
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Default Can a christian sin?

Please read and point out anything that I may be wrong on. Any input

would be appreciated.

Romans Chapter 7

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the
law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For
the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long
as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of
her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another
man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is
free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has
married another man.

To me this implies a marriage relationship btween the Laws of God and
man. This would be the state of all mankind until they become
believer's and accept Jesus.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through
the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was
raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Then after someone accepts Jesus as savior they die to the law by
sharing in Jesus's death and resurection, and become married to Jesus.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused
by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But
now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were
held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not
in the oldness of the letter.


This verse to me reinforces other scripture references that state
that, all that a man does apart from Christ is nothing. Apart from
Jesus we can do no good work. So every action of a man before he
recieves Jesus is sin. Because if it is apart from jesus it cannot be a
good thing so must be a sin.

For instance a man who was employed sweeping floors before he was
saved was sweeping floors for money and was sinning but after he is
saved and he is doing his job to the glory of God then the same
sweeping that he was doing before is now no longer a sin, but an action
that may bear good fruit with Gods blessing.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the
contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I
would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall
not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced
in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9
I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin
revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I
found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment,
deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the
commandment holy and just and good.


So the purpose of the law was to make us aware of the sin in our lives.
We were married to it at birth (or at age of accountability?) But our
relationship to the law changes when we become saved. It becomes a
seperate entity apart from our marriage to Jesus.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin,
that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is
good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly
sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold
under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will
to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then,
I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17
But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to
will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not
to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no
longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.


Here is discribed the seperation from sin/law once you become married
to Jesus. So upon becoming saved a second nature is born within you, a
spiritual nature to replace the fleshly nature that drove us before.But
because you are still a creature of flesh you will still have occasion
to break the law. Now if I break the law after becomming saved then it
is no longer I (my new spiritual nature) that breaks the law but
instead it is sin that dwells in me, that is "in my flesh".

The christian walk is one where as we mature in Christ we learn to do
things less according to the flesh (our old nature) and more according
to the spirit (our new nature). So sin becomes no longer a
condemnation, but is tranformed into a compass, upon our salvation,
that points the way toward a better walk with Jesus.

Now the true believer no longer wants to disappoint God with his
decisions and actions, and when he notices that his flesh is sinning it
grieves him. So by using the compass of the law, the guiding of the
Spirit, and the instruction of the Word he begins to mold his life to
one that more and more reflects Jesus.

There are many things that I struggle with in my molding process some
are easy to let go of, some are not. To me whenever I did something
contrary to Gods word, then I had fallen off the wagon, I would wallow
in defeat and wonder why God didn't help me more. But I am beginning to
realize that I am strapped into the wagon, held there by the hand of
God and what I saw as falling off the wagon was just my butt leaving
the wagon slightly whenever we hit a bump. We all struggle with
different issues and face different challenges in our journey toward
christlikeness but if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, Then YOU
(the spiritual man) can not sin.You can witness the sin that is
committed by the flesh but it does not condemn you. You cannot be
defeated by an act of the flesh because it is not you who do it.

The flesh is part of us and while we dwell on this earth we cannot be
seperated from it, but when we become believers we are no longer slaves
to it. That is why we feel so bad when we see the sin that our flesh is
doing, just the fact that you feel defeated by it is a sign that you
are becomming victorious because before you were saved you wouldn't
even have noticed.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills
to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward
man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in
my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this
body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the
flesh the law of sin.


Here we see that to live sinlessly is impossible because there is a
law that evil is present with me, that evil is the flesh. No matter
what victories you experience in your walk with Christ you will never
(on this earth) be able to seperate yourself completely from the flesh
and though you may put behind you some of the actions of the flesh,
there are plenty more to take their place,so if we see each bump as a
defeat then we only put ourselves through mental anguish for no reason.

When you became a believer your spiritual man arrived at the goal,
the Christian walk is the journey that we take our flesh through to get
it to the place that our spirit has already is. Since we cannot arrive
at the goal in this flesh the the purpose must be in the journey
itsself. Don't stew over mistakes of the flesh, but press on with the
journey for each choice is followed by another choice, and the next
choice is the one we should focus on , not the last choice.

Mark
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2009, 01:03 AM
honorofkings
 
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

markm- Most people lump sin into one catagory. There are acctually 3 types of sin. Sin is missing the mark (that means at least you were aiming to hit the mark.) Transgression is that you intentionally missed the mark. Iniquity is when you move the target where-ever you want hit a bulls-eye every time and call it holy.
David
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  #3  
Old 01-22-2009, 03:22 AM
markm's Avatar
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Posts: 47
Default Re: Can a christian sin?

Honorofkings, is the word sin used for many greek words? Your post brought to mind the verse that says all have sinned and fallen short. Does the all mean all christians or all mankind?
Any scripture references you can point out would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for posting your thoughts.

Thank you fatherbeardy for your thoughtful and informed response, I hope that I can look forward to similiar posts from you since you are so obviously spirit filled.


Mark
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  #4  
Old 02-06-2009, 09:54 PM
BruceG
 
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

Dear Mark, I read with much interest your post and was thrilled at your insights that God has given you. May I help a bit with some insights of my own that I have gathered from my walk with our Lord? I think more appropriately "Can a Christian NOT sin"! LOL

Your conclusion as the the ineffectiveness of the law to set us free is right on. If you care to, read a few of my posts. It is the subject I seem to spend most of my time on, as I believe it is the one main reason why the church has become so ineffective in this day and time. We have subtley slipped back under the law of commandments, and death has been the result, not life. We cannot please God by trying to obey external commandments. You were right on when you said as well, that the purpose of the law was to break us, humble us, let us see that unless God does it in us, all is vanity. You have no idea how wonderful a revelation it is that God has given you.

May I tell you a bit more as to how good God is? You say because we are in the flesh, it is impossible to totally overcome sin in our lives, and that we will always sin. I think you are confusing being in this body of flesh and bone with being in "the flesh", meaning the old man. You stopped on Romans 8:1. Read on. In Romans 8:9, God says thru Paul

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."


We will be in this body of flesh till we die or the Lord comes, but we are promised a total release from the fleshly old man and its influence over us. There are a myriad of promises God gives us. I love "Whom the Son sets free is free indeed." I could share 20 with you, and I keep finding more.

Understand, I am not espousing sinless perfectionism. That is presumption that it is impossible for me or you to fall. The mistake here is that it is about us. It is not. It is about a God who promises that He is able to "keep us from falling" and to present us faultless before the Father unto His coming. It is not a once for all act and then I am safe from ever falling. BUt it is promised that we can have victory, complete and utter victory in our lives. How is this possible? Once we repent, having let the law do its work of showing us that in us dwells no good thing (that is the painful part because we have such confidence in our abilities to please god if we just try HARDER!), once we are broken on that rock, we are then asked by God for obedience to the faith, not obedience to the law. What does that mean? It means we are to take our position by faith as totally new creatures, sons and daughters of the living all powerful God believing with as much faith as we have that old things are passed away and all things are made new. We also believe that God has provided us with the ability to abide always in Him, and if we do we will not fall, but rather produce much fruit. Yes, like new babies, our faith starts out weak and frail, but perfect for our age so to speak. And as we ponder just how big and how wonderful is this God of ours, we see by Gods grace that He is far bigger and far more powerful than we ever dreamed...in OUR lives. We have simply limited Him by our little faith. Our only position now is to reckon ourselves dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God. Can we slip? Of course, but it is not because of our weak flesh. It is because of our weak faith. We do not run back under the law and tell God, I slipped up. I will try harder next time. No, that is running back to Egypt. We acknowledge our error in limiting Him, and tell the Lord we are sorry for our lack of faith and crawl into His arms of safety and rest again,trusting in how good a God He is and that we know His victory is total and His victory is ours.

You have come thru the hardest part of understanding this mystery of Godliness. To finally see that the law of commandments can never make you free is a miracle in itself. This is what keeps most from ever getting free of satan's influence in their lives, and they spend years trying to do better, trying harder, all to no avail. Our faith gets weaker and weaker and finally we adopt as our mantra "Well, I am only human"., when it should be "He is God and what He promised He is able also to perform." You have seen a wonderful truth. Let's read the rest of Romans 8. In verse 12, Paul says

"Therefore Brethren, we are NOT debtors to the flesh to live after the flesh."

We do not owe the flesh anything. It is dead. By faith. Now. That is taking up the shield of faith spoken of by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians. And what was promised? That we would quench ALL the fiery darts of the wicked one." Thank you my God. That is why boasting and pride is impossible. We know it is all Christ and we are only asked to acknowledge with our mouths what He said he would do for us, in us, through us..

I pray you have eyes to see how much your God loves you in offering you freedom from disappointing your Heavenly father. To come as far as you have tells me you hunger greatly after God. Let him do His complete work in you. You are about to be amazed!

One last promise. God spoke thru His servant Ezekiel concerning the day when a new covenant would be enacted...OUR covenant"

Ezekial 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

This is the truely amazing God we serve. Our God is far more wonderful than we ever imagined. That is why God said "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of God." It is when we are weak that we are strong, because by abiding in our weakness in our strong God, we put on Hos strength and trust me, Satan shivered at His name, and recognizes the God of the Universe in us.


I am keeping you in my prayers and covet yours as well.

In Him,

Bruce

Last edited by BruceG : 02-06-2009 at 10:07 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-06-2009, 10:48 PM
RevStevenMRobinson's Avatar
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

can a Christian sin?

well, David was a man after God's own heart, and he sinned.
Soloman, was the wisest man ever, and he sinned. and yes, he believed in God.
and the list goes on and on and on

We should not sin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but guess what....we do.

and the truth is heaven is full of sinners..................................................... ...
all be it forgiven sinners.............because of the loving grace of our Lord............
we dont have to pay for our sins.

GOd bless
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Old 02-07-2009, 03:16 PM
BruceG
 
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

[quote=RevStevenMRobinson;12233]can a Christian sin?

well, David was a man after God's own heart, and he sinned.
Soloman, was the wisest man ever, and he sinned. and yes, he believed in God.
and the list goes on and on and on

We should not sin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but guess what....we do.

and the truth is heaven is full of sinners..................................................... ...
all be it forgiven sinners.............because of the loving grace of our Lord............
we dont have to pay for our sins.


Dear Rev, we must remember that both David and Soloman were under the law, not grace and that Jesus had not yet died and that the Holy Spirit was not yet IN them but just WITH them. (big difference)

But we have an advocate, a comforterthat they did not have. In Romans, Paul did not say "And sin shall NOT have dominion over you, but it does...., sorry to say"

Our profession, if it has holes, will allow satan to attack us day and night. I am not saying that it is not strong ME who cannot sin. it is Jesus who promises to keep weak me from falling into it. Totally victorious.

The question we each must ask ourselves is "Will I get out of the boat and believe the unbelievable? Shall we not rather live on the edge and walk on the water of total victory that he has promised and believe or rather, shall we be like the many living content to simply ride out the storm, hoping that God comes back when we are being good?

Please understand, I will never push you into a corner to listen. I will share though. If you ever have genuine misunderstandings about what I am sharing, simply ask me and I will do my best, bad at this as I am, to explain what I believe is the real good news of Christ. God knows my limitations but if he used a donkey to get Balaam's attention, he can certainly find a away to give my words wings, LOL.


GOd bless!
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2009, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

they worshipped the one that was to come. we worship the one that came, and will return
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2009, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

Hello My Brothers
Rev. Robinson...I understand your point about what people are in heaven but Heaven is full of the Redeemed , Angels, Worshipping Creatures, The Father, Son & Holy Spirt, But NEVER SINNERS

Bro. Mark..Yes a Christian Sins. (Miss the Mark= Harmatima)=God's Righteous Standard

You must understand, Positionally In Him you are perfect because you are where He sits in the heaven.
Its the practical where ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF GOD'S GLORY.

If we were Perfect in the Practical, then we would not need the Holy Spirit .......Whos Job is to LEAD US & GUIDE US into all TRUTH.

We also Quench the Holy Spirit at time = SIN...so what we do,,We confess and Apoligize to our Heavenly Father for quenching His Spirit and get back in Line

When God Chastise those who Love (why the Chastisement...because we are out of alignment and need to get straighten back in line with His Spirit)

The Apostle John also wrote to the Church,,,if a man says he has no sin then he is Liar and the truth is not in him
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2009, 03:33 PM
Croref
 
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

[quote=BruceG;12470][quote=RevStevenMRobinson;12233]
Quote:
can a Christian sin?

well, David was a man after God's own heart, and he sinned.
Soloman, was the wisest man ever, and he sinned. and yes, he believed in God.
and the list goes on and on and on
David and solomon weren't Christians, nor could they be.
Quote:
We should not sin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but guess what....we do.
Be careful here. Speak for yourself because one doesn't need to sin and can be blameless in all his ways, remember? . . . And he can do that without any indwelling Holy Spirit.
Quote:
and the truth is heaven is full of sinners..................................................... ...
all be it forgiven sinners.............because of the loving grace of our Lord............
we dont have to pay for our sins.
Wait one! They are saints in white robes albeit, some Christians will have to wait until THEY clean theirs up before entering.


Quote:
[b]Dear Rev, we must remember that both David and Soloman were under the law, not grace and that Jesus had not yet died and that the Holy Spirit was not yet IN them but just WITH them. (big difference)
Yeah, but it was still a grace thing.

Quote:
But we have an advocate, a comforterthat they did not have. In Romans, Paul did not say "And sin shall NOT have dominion over you, but it does...., sorry to say"
Ouch! That one hurts. Sorry, you are in big trouble with that one. Its victim time again.

Quote:
Our profession, if it has holes, will allow satan to attack us day and night. I am not saying that it is not strong ME who cannot sin. it is Jesus who promises to keep weak me from falling into it. Totally victorious.
"Resist the Devil and He will flee". Gird up your loins and deal with your old rotten flesh that refuses to die and demands that our soul give it all our attention. Our flesh nature is inside us the same the Holy Spirit Nature of the Father. Which one you gonna love when they both speak at the same time? . . . Satan, forget him. He is just an outside influence beckoning to your flesh that Jesus defeated. Know that you flesh is your biggest enemy that needs be overcome and defeated.

Last edited by Croref : 02-07-2009 at 03:35 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:33 PM
diebamted21
 
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Default Re: Can a christian sin?

Wrong question.

It's answered by the right question "can a Christian completely avoid sin"?

If you answer yes then book me on your next interplanetory expedition.

Diebamted21.
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