True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-19-2009, 09:23 AM
SolaVerbumDei's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,538
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by winsome View Post
Masses on TV will tend to be more "formal" than most Masses, so they may not be typical of the average parish Mass. Weekday Masses will tend to be shorter then Sunday Masses.
For example the Sunday Mass will have 3 Scripture readings and a psalm, whereas a weekday Mass with have two + a psalm. Also some prayers are omitted at a weekday Mass, and often there will be no homily (sermon) at a weekday Mass.

Singing will vary. Some parishes prefer older "traditional" hymns whereas some may prefer more modern hymns. So although the basic Mass is the same there are differences in style (not sure if that is the best word). A priest recently said the Mass is not a Service but a Drama, in which the Passion of Christ is made present to us.
What a great description he gave you! That is why Catholic communion is something to be shared exclusively with those who believe the Catholic faith. It is also analogous to the sexual act within spouses, meant to be shared between them alone. If you are to receive, wed the bride.

So, at mass we are placed literally at the foot of the cross as the sacrifice of calvary, given by God once and for all, is placed before our very eyes. The Lamb of God, the Victim of Calvary, is made present before us. When we look at the Host we are looking at Christ literally.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-19-2009, 09:44 AM
SolaVerbumDei's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,538
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Dear Redeemer;

Let me give you a historical approach on this situation. St. Ignatius was the second bishop of Antioch and was captured by the Roman Empire and sent to Rome where he was eaten by wild beasts. According to Eusebius he was bishop for 40 years, what means he was made bishop while some of the apostles were still alive.

In a letter he wrote to the Church in Rome he spoke of his wish of dying the way our Lord did. He asked them not to try to save him from martyrdom as he wanted to unite his suffering to that of Christ.

In his way to martyrdom he was taken through Smyrna and he wrote a letter to its bishop, Polycarp. During the reign of the Roman Emperor Trajan (98-117) he was slaughtered.

Ignatius' letters are invaluable to actually know what the Church that existed during the apostles life and immediately after the apostles taught. In fact, his life extended through the transition period between the end of the first Christian generation and the beginning of the third.

What was the Church like during this crucial time? As Ignatius is toured to go to Rome, official delegations from those churches visit him in the name of the head bishop of the most important towns. Ignatius gives them a letter for the head bishop.

Ignatius was a very important man and Antioch was to become one of the great patriarchal bishoprics of the Church of antiquity, along with Alexandria, Rome and, later, Constantinople. Ignatius is very clear in his letters about the role of the bishop in each local congregation:

"It is essential to act in no way without the bishop," Ignatius wrote. "Obey the bishop as if he were Jesus Christ" (2:2, 1). "Do nothing apart from the bishop," Letter to the Philadelphians (7:2). To the Smyrnaeans he warned: "You should all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ did the Father . . . Nobody must do anything that has to do with the Church without the bishop's approval" (8:1).

Ignatius wrote to Polycarp: "Pay attention to the bishop so that God will pay attention to you. I give my life as a sacrifice (poor as it is) for those who are obedient to the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons" (6:1). To the Trallians he wrote: "You cannot have a church without these" (3:2).

So, the Church during this crucial time was hierarchical and unified; not a disconnected group of independent churches with the power to decide on their own on these matters. It was of course not a group of individuals who singly could take the available Scriptures or teachings and decide on their own on Christian matters. It is so common today to have people like that! Was that the Church of Acts? The Church Christ founded? No!

No, that is not the picture we have in the Book of Acts and that is not the picture we have immediately afterwards. The discontinuity comes from those who preach otherwise!

If a Christian then wanted the truth of Christ and wanted to partake of the Bread and the Wine he had to be united with the bishop to receive the faith by the Tradition of the Church. This is simply undisputable. Jesus chose to perpetuate his doctrine and his divine life by committing them to the care of The Church. The apostles and their successors were given the power to perpetuate the continuing sacramental presence of Jesus in this world, as well as to teach what Jesus had taught.

This was not given to individuals nor to disconnected local congregations.

Ignatius wrote that what was required was to have "unshakable faith in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ . . . On the human side, he was sprung from David's line, Son of God according to God's will and power, actually born of a virgin, baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by him, and . . . crucified for us in the flesh under Pontius Pilate and Herod the Tetrarch. We are part of his fruit which grew out of his most blessed Passion . . . By his resurrection, he raised a standard to rally his saints and faithful forever, whether Jews or Gentiles, in one body of his Church. It was for our sakes that he suffered all this, to save us" (1:1-2).

And to accomplish this he wrote, as I posted, “follow the bishop as you follow the Lord. Don’t do anything without the bishop.”

One of the things Ignatius was most insistent on was the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and that to receive it you had to be a member of that community, not just called a Christian: “If anyone is not inside the sanctuary, he lacks God's bread" (5:1-2). "God's bread," Ignatius wrote to the Romans, was "the flesh of Christ" (7:3).

See, the sanctuary here is not referring to"accepting the Lord" but to belonging to the community led by a bishop in the hierarchy of the Church. That is how Jesus, the Apostles and the generation that connects to them established this. And that is what we continue to do.

To the Smyrnaeans he wrote to "regard that Eucharist as valid which is celebrated either by the bishop or by someone he authorizes" He also wrote that "without the bishops' supervision, no baptisms [were] permitted" . So, it is not only necessary to believe these things are true but to be in communion with the Church. You can believe that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ but you cannot receive it if you are not in communion with the Catholic Church.

In fact, Ignatius is the man who first gives us the name Catholic for the Church. So our practice on communion is not capricious. It is exclussive as it is for those who are, as Ignatius taught, "in the sanctuary" and having the real Eucharist that does not exist, as Ignatius taught, "without the bishop."
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-19-2009, 09:50 AM
Soulheart3's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,037
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaVerbumDei View Post
Mass is an act of worship not a performance. We are not there to be entertained. Now, some parishes do better than others in welcoming people. But the worship experience itself is not simply a "social gathering" but an act of worship where Christ himself at the altar under the appearance of bread and wine is the center.
Ismael,
I know you know the bible speaks on the importance of fellowship. When I said it was less social, I mean only one person other than the preist spoke to me, and they said just a couple of words of welcome. Surely you realize I was not expecting a movie or a theatrical play. I know that DURING the service, we are to be focused on worship, but about 15 minutes before and a few minutes afterword, people just filed in, sat quietly, filed out as well in silence. In most protestent services I have attended, usually at least a half dozen people will speak to you, greet you, ask if you have attended any services before, ask if you are a believer, invite you to come back, say they hope you liked the service, invite you to some fellowship type of meeting right afterword or some days later. Fellowship is NOT entertainment, and its not sitting close to other christians. People can worship God in thier own home, for God is everywhere. Surely you see the need of gathering together to provide more than joint worship while just breathing from the same air?
__________________
Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-19-2009, 10:04 AM
MMari
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Ismael,
In most protestant communion services all who are christians are invited to partake of communion. It has been emphasized at places I've been that it is important to not partake of the Lord's table unworthily which I believe is wise.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-19-2009, 10:39 AM
SolaVerbumDei's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,538
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
Ismael,
I know you know the bible speaks on the importance of fellowship. When I said it was less social, I mean only one person other than the preist spoke to me, and they said just a couple of words of welcome. Surely you realize I was not expecting a movie or a theatrical play. I know that DURING the service, we are to be focused on worship, but about 15 minutes before and a few minutes afterword, people just filed in, sat quietly, filed out as well in silence. In most protestent services I have attended, usually at least a half dozen people will speak to you, greet you, ask if you have attended any services before, ask if you are a believer, invite you to come back, say they hope you liked the service, invite you to some fellowship type of meeting right afterword or some days later. Fellowship is NOT entertainment, and its not sitting close to other christians. People can worship God in thier own home, for God is everywhere. Surely you see the need of gathering together to provide more than joint worship while just breathing from the same air?
I understand your point. I am all for fellowship and many Catholic Churches do a great job at that. Others do a lousy job.

But I agree with you on the need for fellowship. Now, in Catholic tradition, once you enter the sanctuary you must be in solence as it is like entering the Holy of Holy's. Outside the sanctuary fellowship is then expected and desirable.

Yes, I see the need for fellowship. Now, I have been at many Protestant churches and they are a performance, a big show. That is a difference with Catholic worship. But again, I have enjoyed many opportunities at non-Catholic services.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:07 AM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

duplicate...

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 10-19-2009 at 12:38 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:23 AM
Soulheart3's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,037
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaVerbumDei View Post
I understand your point. I am all for fellowship and many Catholic Churches do a great job at that. Others do a lousy job.

But I agree with you on the need for fellowship. Now, in Catholic tradition, once you enter the sanctuary you must be in solence as it is like entering the Holy of Holy's. Outside the sanctuary fellowship is then expected and desirable.

Yes, I see the need for fellowship. Now, I have been at many Protestant churches and they are a performance, a big show. That is a difference with Catholic worship. But again, I have enjoyed many opportunities at non-Catholic services.
Yes, I also have been to protestant services where it was a performance and it was focused on the performers instead of the Lord... not good. But its also not like that in all protestant services. Out of the 6 different types of protestant services I have attended, only 2 were like that. I am glad you recognize the need for fellowship, that was my point brother.
__________________
Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-19-2009, 12:10 PM
quietude
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed View Post
I have asked myself, how many truths can there be? There can be only one truth. And yet each church stands proud and unrelenting claiming they have the monopoly on truth. It's just insensible, and this is why people cast faith aside.

And yet, that option is not open to me, even in my deepest frustration, because I know that God has spoken to me--through my church, through the bible, through other believers, through circumstance, and through the one miracle he allowed me. I know He is real. I know He accepts me, if only because of Christ. I know that Jesus died to bring me back to God. What I don't know is why He has allowed this division. There must be a reason.

Where is it all leading? How will He fix His broken church and unify it? I could believe Satan caused this division, and yet I know he is already defeated. So God will unify His church once again. Jesus will not lose any of those that are His, regardless of where or how they worship.

I need to think long and hard on all of this. I need to pray and read my bible. And yet, when I read, whose interpretation is correct? God had best speak clearly to me on all of this real soon, because right now I am so confused--again. I want to know the truth.
Enter the Book of Mormon, which contains answers to the very problems you address here. Nephi, a BoM prophet, saw our day in vision, and wrote about what he saw:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephi, son of Lehi - between 600 and 592 B.C. (1 Nephi 13:19-23)
And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity [American colonists] were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?

And I said unto him: I know not.

And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a brecord of the Jews [the Bible], which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass [the Bible record that the Nephites possessed], save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.
Nephi continues, describing the corruption of the Bible record by the forces of Satan, which results in the "stumbling" of the Gentiles, as evidenced by the fragmentation of Christianity:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephi, son of Lehi - between 600 and 592 B.C. (1 Nephi 13:24-29)
And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews bunto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable dchurch, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

And after these plain and precious things were ataken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
But, Nephi continues, God will not allow this confusion to last forever:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephi, son of Lehi - between 600 and 592 B.C. (1 Nephi 13:32-36)
Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that aabominable church, whose formation thou hast seen.

Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles...

And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel [American Indians]... in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things [the Book of Mormon record] shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.

And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.
And intended result, as seen by Nephi:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephi, son of Lehi - between 600 and 592 B.C. (1 Nephi 13:38-40)
And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.

And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.
And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the eSavior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
Later on in his record, Nephi quotes the writings of Joseph, son of Jacob, whose writings are lost to the world, but were possessed by those in ancient times. Joseph, also seeing our day in vision, writes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph, son of Jacob (2 Nephi 3:12)
]
Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write [Nephites]; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write [Jews]; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins [Book of Mormon], and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible], shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
It is a shame that Christians do not see in the Book of Mormon the unifying power that it possesses. Of course, to allow that unity to take place sometimes requires the setting aside of traditions and beliefs that folks are loathe to abandon. So in that regard, it is a shame, but not incomprehensible. At any rate, the way has been opened and the pieces are in place. "Who will embrace them?" is the question.

Now, pardon me while I get in my foxhole...

Last edited by quietude : 10-19-2009 at 12:40 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-19-2009, 12:37 PM
CatholicCrusader
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed View Post
.....If you are a Catholic, please dispel the mystery for me. Just what really does go on in there? (kidding, kidding!)

There are different parts to the Mass: Listening to readings from the Bible, listening to the homily (i.e. sermon), our worship, etc.

But the core of the Mass is is the Eucharist. The great mystery of the Mass is that we are mystically present at Calvary.

God exists outside of time. There is no past or present for God; He is in the eternal now, and all of history stands before Him, including Christ's sacrafice on the cross. In his great mercy, what is ever-present before Him, he mysteriously make present before us, which is the sacrafice on Calvary. The sacrafice of the the Mass is not a new sacrafice at every Mass, but rather the re-presentation, in time, of the once-for-all sacrafice on Calvary. This is the great miracle, and mystery, of the Mass. It has gone on, in one form or another, for 2000 years. Of course, protestants do not accept this miracle as fact - which is their great loss - but we do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed View Post
....Do some Catholics really go to church every day?
Some do. There is daily Mass, and usually around four Masses on Sunday.[/size][/font]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed View Post
....If you are a Catholic and you've visited non-Catholic churches, what were your feelings and responses to the visit?
While I respect other Christians, I knew I was not at Calvary. It was nice that people were singing to God and all that, but I knew I was at an Americanized version of Christianity, and not at the ancient worship and miracle of the Mass.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-19-2009, 01:02 PM
SolaVerbumDei's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,538
Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietude View Post
Enter the Book of Mormon, which contains answers to the very problems you address here. Nephi, a BoM prophet, saw our day in vision, and wrote about what he saw:



Nephi continues, describing the corruption of the Bible record by the forces of Satan, which results in the "stumbling" of the Gentiles, as evidenced by the fragmentation of Christianity:


But, Nephi continues, God will not allow this confusion to last forever:


And intended result, as seen by Nephi:


Later on in his record, Nephi quotes the writings of Joseph, son of Jacob, whose writings are lost to the world, but were possessed by those in ancient times. Joseph, also seeing our day in vision, writes:


It is a shame that Christians do not see in the Book of Mormon the unifying power that it possesses. Of course, to allow that unity to take place sometimes requires the setting aside of traditions and beliefs that folks are loathe to abandon. So in that regard, it is a shame, but not incomprehensible. At any rate, the way has been opened and the pieces are in place. "Who will embrace them?" is the question.

Now, pardon me while I get in my foxhole...
I think it is a shame that Mormons try to sell us that book! There is nothing unifying on the teachings of that book. The Traditions of Christ cannot be abandoned in favor of the allegations of a man that lived just yesterday.

Nothing broken in the Tradition. Simply because ALL who preach restoration allege it is here and there means nothing really.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions for Catholic Cont. Called2Freedom General Discussions 172 07-09-2009 12:26 PM
Attention Catholic Crusader! PentecostalEvangelist Theology 57 05-11-2009 10:43 PM
The catholic Church of Christ diebamted21 General Discussions 40 03-01-2009 05:25 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:53 AM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29