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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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  #11  
Old 10-18-2009, 08:36 PM
SolaVerbumDei's Avatar
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Originally Posted by Kriizzle View Post
See, that just seems too exclusive. I don't see why anyone would have to chain themselves to a specific denomination to part-take in a ceremony that was meant for all of us who love, follow, and trust Christ.
The problem is that the Catholic Church is not a denomination. We do not consider the Church a denomination but the Church of Christ.

To receive communion first of all you need to believe that what you receive is the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol. Most Protestants reject that understanding so they simply cannot receive what they don't believe in!

Second, you have to believe the faith of the Church of Christ in its entirety.The Eucharist was entrusted to the Church not to each individual believer as they see fit.

If not, your gesture of receiving becomes a lie.

Third, I don't come to your table in your home and dictate to you how are you doing things in your house.

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I'm mean, I kinda understand, but it's still silly in my mind on why you wouldn't allow someone to part-take in a ceremony that Jesus wants all of us to do (is we so choose). He never said that you had to be Catholic to take of the break and wine.
He didn't have to say that because then there was nothing but the Catholic Church. That is the Church he was founding!

It is only later when all these groups split and individuals on their own leave the Church that they want in without signing in.
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2009, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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We usually begin with singing. The lead singers and musicians are called our "Worship Team." We pause for church news, prayer, and we pause for collections. The songs are usually chosen to relate to whatever the sermon for the day will be. The sermon follows the singing, and in my church, the pastor chooses verses from the bible and expounds on them, often giving historical background, ideas on how to apply what is taught to our own lives, etc. Even if you don't have a lot of time to study the bible on your own, you learn much just from attending church.
Typical Protestant tradition I say. I have been to so many Protestant services of varied denominations. My wife was Evangelical for 4 years into our marriage and I would join her regularly for Sunday worship. Going on my own to Mass.

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We have communion once a month at my church. The pastor always reads the passages from the bible that tell of Jesus, the bread and wine. He assures visitors that it is "open table" and that all may partake, unless there are personal reasons for not doing so. He actually encourages that all participate, and that we should think on what we are missing if we do not. We sit quietly while the bread and wine are distributed, reflecting on and remembering the sacrifice. We all partake at the same time. This is followed up by prayer and more song.
If I visit your church I would not partake. Why/ Because I believe communion is the very blood, flesh, soul and divinity of Christ, not just a symbol so I won't lie in taking what I do not believe to be real Eucharist.

Second, because my Church tells me not to for the reasons just given. I would be very respectful, prayerful and friendly. I will sing and listen. But I cannot partake in good conscience.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Originally Posted by Redeemed View Post

Forgive me, but I see this in a different light:

Jesus took the bread and broke it and said, [color="Red"]"this do in remembrance of me."
I do not see how this words go against the Catholic practice of close communion. Can you explain?

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When I visited the Lutheran church, it was the first time I ever attended church. Even so, when they moved to take communion, this was not new to me, because I had read of it, and well remembered it. It was meaningful, and I heard Christ saying, "Do this in remembrance of me." I understood the solemnity of the moment, and I felt very privileged to "be at the table," so to speak. It was a very holy event for me, my first communion. Then when the elder scolded me right there in the foyer, not softening his reproof with even the hint of a smile, I felt so embarrassed and ashamed. It was like he had told me that I was not good enough to sit at Christ's table, that by joining them in remembrance, I had done something wrong. I felt very rejected.
Scolding people is not the right way to do things. He was right on the substance, wrong on the attitude. What he did was terrible.

If you go to a Catholic mass you are not going to be told anything at most parishes. As Sunday mass is attended commonly by Catholics most assume all are Catholic. However, if a Catholic invited you is his duty to inform you of our discipline. At masses where t is presumed there are non-Catholics present, say at a wedding, the priest is supposed to inform people kindly and ask non-Catholics to come forward to receive a blessing.

Besides, at all Catholic masses there is a missalete to help people follow the readings. There, you see the Catholic rule on this written for all to know.

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I can not get past the fact that Jesus, Himself, would have wanted me to participate. Taking communion is not about being in full communion with the Catholic faith; taking communion is about being in full communion with Christ!
For us it is the same as the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth in Christ.

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And when you say that if I am not Catholic than I am not of your same faith . . . well, what exactly are you saying? I can come in off the street, with a heart full of love and need for God, but I am "not of your faith"? I can not eat at Christ's table? I am not worthy of remembering so great a sacrifice?
You are not Catholic, that is what it means. You are Christian like me and in a sense you are in an imperfect communion with the Church Christ founded. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is present in Eucharist the way we believe? If not, you are not being truthful if you receive!

Look, there is a reality of a great division in Christianity. Some left the Church of Christ, so they are not in full communion with the Church to which Jesus entrusted the Eucharist.

In fact, you must be a Catholic in good standing. If you are Catholic but not in good standing due to sin you are neither in full communion and must abstain too.

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Are we not all Christian, first and foremost? What is it that should set Christians apart from other faiths? What is it that binds Christians of any Christian church or denomination, if it is not Christ? How can I attend any church that will not allow me to take communion, when Christ, Himself, said that we should do so? Am I to listen to men who rebuke me? Or to Christ who asked that I partake? Would the Catholic Church keep me from obeying the words of Christ?
One of the big issues that set us apart is that some abandoned the biblical and historical truth about the Eucharist. They say, "Hey, what you are getting is not Christ. You are wrong, is just a symbol. So, I care less what you believe and when I am with you I will just do my thing and take it." Is that ok with you?

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Coming to Christ should not be made so difficult that one must study for months on end to do so. It is a matter of heart. The thief on the cross, remember, was welcomed by Christ, probably as an example to us more than for any other reason. Jesus knew what was in the thief's heart at that horrible moment in time. He likewise knew what was in my heart when I took that first communion, and though men attempted to despoil it, I still hold it as sacred and precious.
It is not that easy to take it. Join the Catholic Church. We wait with open arms!

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Any church, every service, needs to be aware of newcomers to the Christian faith, as well as newcomers to the individual church. If they are made in any way to feel cast out or shamed, they may leave and just say the heck with the whole thing (faith). They are new, not grounded in their faith, tentatively seeking, and very sensitive to the treatment they receive. Unfortunately, many newborn Christians have not yet learned the rule---Do not judge Christ or Christianity by the ill-considered actions of Christians or Christian churches. There needs to be a balance between caring for the members of your church and caring for the Shepherd's lost sheep, don't you agree?

Respectfully~
Nancy
But we should not pretend what is not true. We should not pretend a unity that is not there. We believe with St. Paul in One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism. In other words, unity of belief, unity of worship, unity of sacraments. If that is not there we should not pretend it is there.

Kindness, yes, prayer for unity, yes, love for each other, yes. Pretense? No.

Peace to you.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

I agree also with Kriizzle, this to me sounds like Catholic tradition, I dont know why, me being protastant, and never been in a catholic church is why i dont understandIf one is saved they should be able to take communion, thats just me, I know when we do take commuion we let every body that will do so.
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Last edited by Dewayne : 10-18-2009 at 10:18 PM.
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Originally Posted by SolaVerbumDei View Post
The problem is that the Catholic Church is not a denomination. We do not consider the Church a denomination but the Church of Christ.

To receive communion first of all you need to believe that what you receive is the Body and Blood of Christ, not just a symbol. Most Protestants reject that understanding so they simply cannot receive what they don't believe in!

Second, you have to believe the faith of the Church of Christ in its entirety.The Eucharist was entrusted to the Church not to each individual believer as they see fit.

If not, your gesture of receiving becomes a lie.

Third, I don't come to your table in your home and dictate to you how are you doing things in your house.



He didn't have to say that because then there was nothing but the Catholic Church. That is the Church he was founding!

It is only later when all these groups split and individuals on their own leave the Church that they want in without signing in.
I wasn't trying to dictate, just voicing my thoughts first of all.

I still don't think that Jesus had a specific church or denomination in mind. Jesus wanted everyone to par-take in HIM, not a church or denomination. HE comes first, not the Catholic faith (nothing against anyone who is Catholic, just my opinion again).
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

Ismael~

All I honestly feel right now is great sadness. This division was never meant to be.

Or was it? If God is in control, if He allowed it, what is He trying to show us by this division?

When I took communion that first time, I did it in obedience to Christ, in response to Him saying, "Do this in remembrance of me." I was innocent of any disrespect to the church.

Does God hold me in contempt for what some distant ancestors did? I was only seeking God. In searching for a church, I was only seeking the family in Christ that I never had here on earth. I did not break away from the Catholic Church. I was not aware of any great division in Christianity, but I gradually became aware of the frustration of many different teachings as I visited different churches--teachings that actually pit one Christian church against another.


I have asked myself, how many truths can there be? There can be only one truth. And yet each church stands proud and unrelenting claiming they have the monopoly on truth. It's just insensible, and this is why people cast faith aside.

And yet, that option is not open to me, even in my deepest frustration, because I know that God has spoken to me--through my church, through the bible, through other believers, through circumstance, and through the one miracle he allowed me. I know He is real. I know He accepts me, if only because of Christ. I know that Jesus died to bring me back to God. What I don't know is why He has allowed this division. There must be a reason.

Where is it all leading? How will He fix His broken church and unify it? I could believe Satan caused this division, and yet I know he is already defeated. So God will unify His church once again. Jesus will not lose any of those that are His, regardless of where or how they worship.

I need to think long and hard on all of this. I need to pray and read my bible. And yet, when I read, whose interpretation is correct? God had best speak clearly to me on all of this real soon, because right now I am so confused--again. I want to know the truth.

He tells me, "You do know Me."

"Yes, Lord I do know you and love you."

"Then trust me."

What am I to say? What am I seeking that I do not already have?!!!

Good night, Ismael.

Last edited by Redeemed : 10-19-2009 at 01:43 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-19-2009, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Originally Posted by Redeemed View Post
Although I have visited quite a few different Protestant (non-Catholic) churches, I have never visited a Catholic church. The closest I came was a Lutheran church, but when I was scolded in a not-so-friendly manner for taking communion with the congregation, I never returned.

As a young boy, my husband visited a Catholic church with a friend. He also got in "big trouble" with his friend's dad, when dad found out he (my hubby) had taken communion.

I've seen mass (is mass just another word for church?) on TV, and it appeared very formal, somewhat mysterious, and rather intimidating. Intimidating meaning--I fear I'd do something not acceptable or I'd not do something I should do, if I were there.

If you are a non-Catholic and you have visited a Catholic church, please share your feelings and initial reactions to your visit. Is it so terribly different from a Protestant-type service, as I imagine it to be? I've heard say there's not much talk of Jesus, and that there is a lot of repititious "chanting."

If you are a Catholic, please dispel the mystery for me. Just what really does go on in there? (kidding, kidding!) Do some Catholics really go to church every day? Are there evening services, as well as morning? Are there lots of candles, incense, splashing of Holy Water, and smoke? (I hope you're not laughing. My husband said the priest walked around with some "smoking thing.") Is church a spiritual-heart thing, or more of a responsibility? (I'm sure that would vary from one to another.)

If you are a Catholic and you've visited non-Catholic churches, what were your feelings and responses to the visit?

Are we all so very different?

Would it be a good idea to speak to a priest before I were to visit? I think I'd like to be invisible on my first visit--you know, take it all in without standing out as a newcomer. (Churches in my area are usually small.)

What would I wear? If I wore blue jeans, would I be underdressed?

Anyway, pick and choose the questions I've presented as you will, and tell me what you think.

Thanks!

~Nancy
Masses on TV will tend to be more "formal" than most Masses, so they may not be typical of the average parish Mass. Weekday Masses will tend to be shorter then Sunday Masses.
For example the Sunday Mass will have 3 Scripture readings and a psalm, whereas a weekday Mass with have two + a psalm. Also some prayers are omitted at a weekday Mass, and often there will be no homily (sermon) at a weekday Mass.

Singing will vary. Some parishes prefer older "traditional" hymns whereas some may prefer more modern hymns. So although the basic Mass is the same there are differences in style (not sure if that is the best word). A priest recently said the Mass is not a Service but a Drama, in which the Passion of Christ is made present to us.
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  #18  
Old 10-19-2009, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Originally Posted by Dewayne View Post
I agree also with Kriizzle, this to me sounds like Catholic tradition, I dont know why, me being protastant, and never been in a catholic church is why i dont understandIf one is saved they should be able to take communion, thats just me, I know when we do take commuion we let every body that will do so.
Please re-read my reply as I think I explained why. Second, yes, it is a tradition. May God be praised for that!
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  #19  
Old 10-19-2009, 09:03 AM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Originally Posted by Kriizzle View Post
I wasn't trying to dictate, just voicing my thoughts first of all.

I still don't think that Jesus had a specific church or denomination in mind. Jesus wanted everyone to par-take in HIM, not a church or denomination. HE comes first, not the Catholic faith (nothing against anyone who is Catholic, just my opinion again).
I obviously miscommunicated here. I was not trying to say you but whomever decides to receive our communion in violation of the practice of the very community they are attending.

Your last sentence is hard to understand. What do you mean "everyone"? Even unbelievers?

It cannot be as to sustain that is impossible from Scripture and history and logic.

Of course Jesus came first. But I don't see your point. My point is that Jesus formed a community of believers, created a structure for that community, gave that community his own power and authority and sent that community into the whole world. That community we believe subsists in the Catholic Church. To that community he entrusted the Eucharist.

It is not up to individuals on their own to change that. That is the point. Many of those believers who say they think they can take communion don't even believe the truth about communion! They think is a symbol. They do not owe allegiance to that community we believe was formed by Christ and given the power to administer that sacrament. But they still insist they have a right.

Here there may be a radical difference on the concept of church. What is the Church? Is it disconnected local congregations with local authority but not liable to obey a given general authority? Is it a collection of believers who, even if not connected to a local church, are members of Christ so that the Church is that collection of believers who obey no universal human authority but only their own or what they think Christ tells them personally?

We Catholics reject those concepts of what "church" is.
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2009, 09:19 AM
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Non-Catholic church

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Ismael~

All I honestly feel right now is great sadness. This division was never meant to be.

Or was it? If God is in control, if He allowed it, what is He trying to show us by this division?
I feel the same sadness. I do believe it was not meant to be.

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When I took communion that first time, I did it in obedience to Christ, in response to Him saying, "Do this in remembrance of me." I was innocent of any disrespect to the church.
I believe you 100% and I know God understands. I have seen this happen before and you need to be gentle and loving in explaining things to people. Now, the way we understand that passage is Christ telling his disciples to do the sacrament, not Christ telling all Christians to partake. Jesus was addressing his 12 disciples and ordaining them priests at that time.

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Does God hold me in contempt for what some distant ancestors did? I was only seeking God. In searching for a church, I was only seeking the family in Christ that I never had here on earth. I did not break away from the Catholic Church. I was not aware of any great division in Christianity, but I gradually became aware of the frustration of many different teachings as I visited different churches--teachings that actually pit one Christian church against another.
You acted in good conscience. I see no problem here but a good person trying to do God's will.

Quote:
Where is it all leading? How will He fix His broken church and unify it? I could believe Satan caused this division, and yet I know he is already defeated. So God will unify His church once again. Jesus will not lose any of those that are His, regardless of where or how they worship.
Dialogue and prayer will bring unity. I am very excited about the Orthodox/Catholic dialogue for example.

Thank you for sharing with me. You are in my prayers and I hope to be in yours.
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